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Sep 27, 2011 5:22 PMPublication: The East Hampton Press

Businesses Fear Giant Wage Jump For Seasonal Workers

Sep 27, 2011 5:44 PM

East End businesses that rely on seasonal immigrants to fill out their summer staffing needs fear that a proposed U.S. Department of Labor rule will require them to pay workers as much as double current wages, threatening many business’s financial viability or the quality of their services.

Earlier this year the department issued a rule that would boost by as much as 100 percent the wages that many seasonal workers in a variety of positions must be paid if they are brought to the U.S. by employers under the popular H-2B Seasonal Visa program. The increases varied depending on the type of work done, based on the results of a wage survey conducted by the labor department, but most required increases of at least 35 to 40 percent.

“It’s a bit crazy—pool companies are paying $9 and change now and the Department of Labor comes in and tells them they’re going to have to pay $18 an hour now and that’s not even counting overtime,” said Lissette Hildesheim, a Hampton Bays attorney who has represented a number of East End employers who have relied on H-2B workers for years. “This is going to really affect landscaping companies, pool companies, hotels—they rely on H-2B workers. Some of them will have to close if this becomes a rule.”

The H-2B Seasonal Visa allows employers to legally bring foreign workers to the U.S. to fill pre-arranged positions they cannot find Americans willing or able to do. The workers can stay in the U.S. for up to 10 months in most cases, after which they must return to their native country for at least two months before they can apply to return. Many East End hotels, pool service and landscaping companies have relied heavily on the H-2B workers for more than a decade to fill labor crews and as chambermaids. Business owners say that it is impossible to find Americans who are willing to do the hard manual labor of moving and planting trees or the menial tasks of maids and cleaning staff and that without the H-2B program many of them would be driven to turn to undocumented immigrants.

“The money is a big issue, but it’s not just how much more it would cost. There are not people here who can do the jobs,” said Fernando Bustamante, a Montauk landscaper who owns Warren’s Nursery in Water Mill. “If we have to pay $15, we will get people apply for jobs who cannot dig holes for trees. They can’t do this kind of work, there’s no way and then we’ll be stuck.”

The H-2B program requires that any jobs to be filled by immigrant workers first be advertised extensively in the U.S. to give Americans an opportunity. With unemployment in the U.S. and Long Island at nearly 10 percent, Ms. Hildesheim surmised that the Labor Department may be looking to make some H-2B jobs more attractive to Americans, at the expense of some small employers who may be stretched financially already.

“If you advertise $18 an hour for unskilled positions then, yeah, you’ll have Americans answer,” she said. “But our employers can’t afford to pay that much and stay in business. They will have to raise prices and they will lose customers.”

But U.S. Representative Tim Bishop said this week that the motivation for the labor department was not unemployment or reducing the number of immigrant laborers coming to the U.S. but a belief that H-2B workers are taken advantage of by employers. The view is a misplaced one, he said, at least locally.
“Here on Long Island we have workers that return year after year and they are taken care of very well by their employers,” Congressman Bishop said. “In other parts of the country there may be some issue, but I can say that is decidedly not the case here.”

Mr. Bishop said he is considering sponsoring a bill that could nullify the new wage rules by cutting off the funding to enforce it.

The Department of Labor does not need any Congressional or legislative approval to implement the rule, though Congress could pass legislation countermanding the rule, as the Republican majority in the House of Representatives is currently attempting to do with several Environmental Protection Agency regulations.

The new wage structure was to go into effect on September 31. A group of employers, primarily large farm and sugar harvesting companies and a national hoteliers organization, filed a lawsuit earlier this month challenging the new wage requirement structure. Since then the Department of Labor has announced that it is delaying the implementation of the rule 60 days, until November 30, to hear objections to the new wages.

Employers who rely on H-2B workers have feared for the stability of their critical labor supply in the past. Political wrangling over broader immigration rules threatened to end the H-2B program altogether in recent years, before Mr. Bishop and other federal representatives from seasonal areas mounted a concerted push to secure the program.

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I don't understand how they can say there would be no one to fill a position of digging a tree or mowing a lawn. How do you think it was done before we were flooded with illegals? The problem is no one with a family, and a decent life can live on nine dollars an hour. Raise prices for services the rich can afford it. We have 9% unemployment, and 17% under employment we don't need to import help.
By chief1 (2800), southampton on Sep 27, 11 9:03 PM
1 member liked this comment
The rich can afford to move as well. And if this crap passes I hope to god they do. Then you can pay each other $18 an hour to look at an empty town.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Sep 28, 11 11:55 AM
Yay big govt! Way to go! Why don't you just light our businesses on fire and get it over with. Ask not what your government can do for you, ask what it can do to you.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 27, 11 9:05 PM
1 member liked this comment
I've known quite a few people who have come to the East End from Ireland and parts of Eastern Europe. None of them seemed like they were being "taken advantage of". They get put in nice houses (granted, they are "share" type houses) in the hamptons, work their 40-50 hours a week and spend the rest of the time at the bars and beaches. Their living expenses are paid for and usually transportation is arraigned for them to get to and from work so they have little overhead.

Additionally, ...more
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Sep 27, 11 9:43 PM
Yet the barrel of another gun held by the federal government with the support of our local congressman aimed at the local business owner and the middle class.
Sep 28, 11 6:57 AM appended by kaluss45
it actually doesn't look like the local congressman supports it.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Sep 28, 11 6:57 AM
1 member liked this comment
Even doubling the hourly wage may make it hard for Americans to take these kinds of jobs, as most of them don't come with benefits (health insurance, etc)., plus, what are these now newly un-employed Americans to do after Oct/Nov??? Can't imagine what the unemployment % rate would be then.....
By cat (18), Riverhead on Sep 28, 11 8:04 AM
Oh right...all the landscaping and seasonal business use workers on the H-2B program. Please Im sure all those guys who pick up workers at 7-11 are worried.
By squeaky (291), hampton bays on Sep 28, 11 9:47 AM
Absolutely amazing that the same loud mouths who constantly complain about immigrant labor (Legal or otherwise) would scream and cry about "big gov't" when the new regulations are clearly meant to discourage seasonal workers from abroad and encourage local hiring (even though there are not workers here to take the freaking jobs). If the government does nothing you folks whine and if they try to solve the problem, you whine louder!

And it is clear that most of you wingnuts comment without ...more
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Sep 28, 11 11:30 AM
1 member liked this comment
Who screams about legal immigrants? The new regulations would more than likely create a void that will be filled by off the books hiring of undocumented laborers. So you do think this is going to hurt? Answer = those who want to play by the rules. So once again govt steps in and makes it damn near impossible to play by the rules. Glad you support it. I'd hate to ever agree with you.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 28, 11 2:46 PM
1 member liked this comment
government intervention in the economy creates failing companies and doesn't let the free market work.It is the reason we are in this double dip. Just another socialistic artificial stimulus designed to make the unions stronger and hurt the private sector. Vote these people out before it is truly to late.
By They call me (2826), southampton on Sep 28, 11 12:05 PM
And what have you ever run? Give me a break with your liberal ideological nonsense. Go start a business and see what reality is like. You have no clue at all.

What's better... 50 jobs at $12 / hr or zero at $18 / hr?
You really have no idea of what it takes to run a business. I read your post and wonder why those of us who take the risk ever hire people like you. We are not talking about huge firms here. We are talking about small businesses that can't afford doubling salaries. Unreal. ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 28, 11 10:07 PM
1 member liked this comment
Bravo, Double, Well said.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Sep 29, 11 1:19 AM
"There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to ...more
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Sep 28, 11 12:44 PM
2 members liked this comment
We're not saying you can't be wealthy.

All we're sayin' is you CAN'T #@&! everyone else to do it.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 28, 11 6:39 PM
Progressnow and her leftist cohorts are perfectly fine with illegal immigrants taking advantage of all those services paid for by legal residents though.

Just say it progressnow, legal American businesses are evil, and unchecked infiltration of our southern border by people who don't have the respect for this country and it's laws to get in line make your heart flutter.

Now go ahead and repeat the liberal lie about how those guys standing in front of a 7/11 are actually paying ...more
By RealityFirst (597), Bridgehampton on Sep 30, 11 3:16 PM
The pool company will have to pay $18 dollars an hour now? Most pool companies charge over a $100 an hour if they do repairs on your pool. These people that come here for $9.00 an hour are like indentured servents. They live with many people to a house in poor housing. Some employers around here have used this program out of pure greed. Treat people right, and stop abusing them!
By chief1 (2800), southampton on Sep 28, 11 5:22 PM
1 member liked this comment
That is rather accurate. The going labor rate these days is usually $100/hr. or better.

In the last thirty years, taxes for the upper 10% have dropped like a stone, "middle class" salaries have remained stagnant, roughly 75% of all "trickle down" dollars trickled no further down than the top 10%, and to top it all off, the top 1% INCREASED how much of this country they own in the last four years, and have now exceeded the 40% mark, while most everyone else lost their shirt. In 2009, a ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 28, 11 6:18 PM
Etiam incepit.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 28, 11 10:17 PM
The ideas expressed by many here are rather scary. You want to harpoon the big bad business owner because of false assumptions that they are all rich. New flash, you are wrong. You may find a few cases of abuse, no one will justify it. That said, many small businesses barely get by. You use examples of $100 labor rates for pool digging. You ever think that the profit making season for pool digging is about 4 months long? Ever take into consideration overhead, taxes, insurances? No, of course not. ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 28, 11 10:31 PM
Have you maybe noticed the protests lately? Have you noticed a full 66% of this country who pay taxes earned 50k, or LESS in the fiscal year 2009?

Have you noticed you live in an Oligarchy?

Do you even really know what "Socialism" is?

The problem in this country is the devaluation of an honest day's labor. There is a difference between EARNING, and TAKING.

You want to know what I find "scary"?

Willful blindness.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 28, 11 11:04 PM
no, the reasons that governments and businesses can never be compared are vast. but for example, governments run at losses forever yet continue to keep their jobs. no government needs to be concerned with turning a profit or watching costs, they just confiscate more of your tax dollars if necessary. governments simply eliminate their competition via regulations and taxes that they insidiously impose on the little guy, in other words, they use our own money to squash us and lastly, no government ...more
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Sep 29, 11 7:06 AM
Can you tell me how any of this equates to real world, small town economics? A wage is assigned to a task. We are not importing brain surgeons.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 8:20 AM
I agree with Congressman Bishop that offering legislation to de-fund and defunct this decision is the right way to go. There is no such thing as fairness...never has existed and never will exist..if you can locate it anywhere in nature, please point it out to us, but legislation will not create ''fairness''. its simply impossible.
Sep 29, 11 6:18 AM appended by kaluss45
phil, you have almost 30% of the posts here, 10 of 34 and you aren't getting anywhere. the us' ability to compete in the global market is extremely handicapped, some reasons good, some very poor - way more complicated than outsourcing and importing low wage workers and all that easy headline fodder. see you tomorrow.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Sep 29, 11 6:18 AM
Flash to the socialist nitwits here: BUSINESS DOESN'T EXIST TO PROVIDE JOBS BUT TO MAKE A PROFIT FOR IT'S OWNERS!!!! I find it incredible that there are any in favor of the federal government mandating wages in excess of the minimum wage now in place. Let the marketplace set the price. Don't like the pay? Start your own freaking business and pay your help whatever the hell you want!
As to the H2-B workers, they know what they're in for when they sign up, and there's a lot of them who are ...more
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Sep 29, 11 7:11 AM
Where are these Americans lining up to fill these jobs? Your liberal ilk insist on sucking more tax money from the working class to subsidize a welfare class to sit at home. Then you freak out when nobody shows up to actually work. You created this yet you blame job creators. Nice trick.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 8:25 AM
I've paid more taxes then you'll pay in a lifetime. I create jobs. You complain and want your govt to hold your hand through life. Well done.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 9:13 AM
All the while, 66% of this country, grosses 50K or less these days.

What a %^*%$# idiot.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 29, 11 9:11 PM
News Flash:

In 2004 the "Job Creators" were given a "Corporate Tax Holiday", and brought money back to the States at 5%, instead of 35%.

What did they do?

They pocketed the money as salary, and bonuses, then proceeded to lay off thousands of people.

Trying to regulate the wrong folks again, aren't they?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 29, 11 9:16 PM
Z - how does this equate to kick in the teeth that our local businesses are about to take? Drive down Main St in our local towns. See all those vacant shops. You are about to see more. Philathome is pleased by this because there are less "theives rape us with your overpriced garbage." And less stores that "peddle your trash to the tourists."

The assumption that all small business owners out here are filthy rich is false.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 10:24 PM
Well, DS, most of those empty storefronts are empty, because of the insane prices asked for a commercial lease.

You have property owners, who have either paid such a ridiculous amount of money for the place, they have to charge so much, OR they got it on the cheap years ago, and are TAKING stupid amounts of money from a small business owner, and comfortably lining their own pockets.

Folla' the dolla', and find the problems.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 12:19 AM
Phil you hate successful people and you are angry about your own situation. Only you can fix that. Stop blaming and start problem solving.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 30, 11 11:19 AM
philathome said: "Another one who supports importing low wage workers and keeping Americans out of work.
What a patriot."

..and yet philathome has no problem with illegal immigrants undercutting legal workers, do you phil?
By RealityFirst (597), Bridgehampton on Sep 30, 11 3:20 PM
Apple is sitting on 70 billion in cash. My guess is that many of the complainers here have an iphone / ipad or a mac. Why are you not boycotting Apple? Are they doing the right thing by clogging up so much cash? Nah, it's easier to attack small businesses on a message board. Why? You hate the success that you can see and put a face too. Why not try to open a business? You all seem to be masters of how things work. I want to see your small business that is filled with $18 hr workers. Maybe you'll ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 9:58 AM
Yes. An the alternative is that I lock the door and close the lights and put a few people on the unemployment line.
You have no clue. Go to work.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 10:07 AM
They are. And if they don't pick up the pace I will eat their children and light them on fire. That's the way business is. I have someone fanning me and feeding me grapes right now too.

Go to work.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 10:40 AM
1 member liked this comment
Maybe. Sometimes I let them wash one of my Mercedes.
Is that what you mean?

What characteristics would make a dish washer or check out person worth $18/hr?

By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 1:46 PM
Yes, yes... and you forgot my house in Hawaii.
Phil, you have no clue about me, economics, or what it takes to run a business. Your assumptions are so wrong that I check in for a good laugh. You never disappoint. So by your logic all jobs should start above $18/hr. That means a pizza would cost you $30. Your grocery bill would probably double. An ice cream cone would be $10. You conveniently forgot about the impact on payroll taxes.

You are angry because you have to work 2 jobs. Well ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 3:10 PM
2 members liked this comment
Couldnt agree more. I had a business, a seasonal one at that. I could not possibly have paid more than current min wage. The overhead alone was crazy! I did very well sales-wise but summers cannot carry any business here through the winter paying the help $18 per hour. But again, the business here that hire illegals will have nothing to worry about, unregulated and tax free. Its the businesses that want to hire legitimate legal workers that will be hurt. Or maybe Phil will be ok with paying more ...more
By squeaky (291), hampton bays on Sep 29, 11 3:22 PM
1 member liked this comment
Nice attitude. Tell me why you live here again?
How about we build a giant K-Mart and put it on Main St Southampton?

What have you done or what do you do to contribute? Have you ever created a job? If not, why not? You seem to have all the answers so I'm sure whatever venture you create will be a major success. Please tell us how because we clearly don't get it.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 4:42 PM
K-Mart pays it's nominal employees no more than $8.50/hr, $7.25 at the register. You can also count on being part-time, unless you are an Assistant Store Manager, or higher. And working no more than 36 hours a week, and the crappiest benefits you can think of, should you elect them. They keep the whole store, except the heiarchy, part time so they can pay a crap wage, and provide crap benefits to turn a profit.

If you are a department manager, you can expect to be paid $9.50 if you are ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 29, 11 8:48 PM
Remind us again, why things have gotten so expensive?

Yeah, that's what I thought...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 29, 11 9:13 PM
I boycott Apple.

No self respecting geek touches one.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 29, 11 9:17 PM
Ok Phil, I'll bite.

What have YOU done to "solve our problem"?
What is YOUR profession?

(I pray it's not economy professor or we are all doomed)
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Sep 29, 11 9:44 PM
Phil, I am one of the little people. Trust me. I have lost my business and my home. Please dont give me I dont understand. A good loyal employee is worth way more than small business can afford, we all know this. But the small business is not in business to support anyones families but their own. Reread my post, never did I say leave. I said look for a different job if what one pays is not enough. I have a 9 to 5 job . I had to work nights in a grocery store to put food on the table. I went to work ...more
By squeaky (291), hampton bays on Sep 30, 11 10:46 AM
you dont know me or anything about me. All I gave you was my take as a former small business person. Trust me....I would much rather work my two jobs than ever have the headache of payroll or taxes again.
By squeaky (291), hampton bays on Sep 30, 11 10:50 AM
Oh no! Now businesses will have to hire local people and pay them enough to fit the rediculous cost of year round living in our area. It's the end of the world!
By YesYesBub (58), East Hampton on Sep 29, 11 2:13 PM
2 members liked this comment
Hey let the town of Southampton hire people on this program. Nine bucks an hour and no benefits. Five million dollar budget gap solved!
By chief1 (2800), southampton on Sep 29, 11 4:36 PM
Entry level positions are just that,ENTRY LEVEL! In the real world you start at the bottom and work your way up, with experience comes higher wages. What kills me about the socialist nitwits here is their sense of entitlement, if a job is worth $10 per hour that's what the pay is, if it's worth $20, the pay is comensurate with the job and experience of the employee. Once again, businesses exist to make a profit, NOT TO PROVIDE JOBS. Comprende Komrades?
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Sep 29, 11 5:01 PM
"...businesses exist to make a profit, NOT TO PROVIDE JOBS."

Yep, bs will not be going to "Occupy Wall St.".
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 29, 11 8:34 PM
You have been arguing all day with people who supply jobs. You assume your own answers and then state that nobody has defended a point. Here's the point, If I could pay people $20/hr I would. I pay people what I can afford to pay them and stay in business. Your attitude towards business owners is comical in how misguided you are, and sad because you believe what you write. I hope your boss doesn't think as low of you as you do of him/her.

Your claim that we can not afford the wages you ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 10:08 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 12:26 AM
And, bf, if you think that "with experience comes higher wages", maybe you should look at the flatline middle class wages have been in the past thirty years, compared to the increase in cost of living for those same people.

Your ability to view things in such a simplistic nature never ceases to amaze me. There are times keeping it simple, is stupid.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 12:36 AM
Someone... anyone... tell me how you would turn a $12/hr task into a $20/hr job and stay in business. I'll let you know that business is uh, difficult in 2011. So raising prices is a non-starter.
Phil / Z / YesYes, tell me how and I will consider implementing your plan.

What is your plan?
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 29, 11 10:17 PM
Ask Ten Years After.

Alvin Lee seemed to have a simple plan.
Sep 30, 11 12:14 AM appended by Mr. Z
Seriously, though, I'd be more than happy to take a forensic look at how you operate.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 12:14 AM
Here's the plan - allow supply and demand to determine wages. That is the open market speaking, with the minimal protection of minimum wage laws. Do not allow the supply of workers to be artificially inflated by "seasonal guest workers". Do not allow the supply of workers to be inflated by illegal workers.

The employer doesn't get to arbitrarily decide what a certain task is worth. That is determined by the marketplace of the workforce being willing to participate at a given rate ...more
By VOS (1241), WHB on Sep 30, 11 1:09 AM
wow, there is so much anger and resentment coming out regarding how much money people make and what they have achieved. and,, it seems that achievers and those that have earned money are looked at with such disdain and hatred. has it always been that way or is this relatively new? i don't ever recall hating people that have earned money when i was broke. growing up in the hamptons we were always surrounded by folks with more than us and still are, but we don't lay all sorts of stereotypical ...more
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Sep 30, 11 6:30 AM
1 member liked this comment
Kaluss, there are a few, very vocal victims here that have a lot of anger focused at business owners. My guys is that it's jealousy and insecurity issues. From what I've seen this minority attitude, though loud, isn't really all that large. Thank goodness for that.

My favorite approach is when they throw out the false accusation and continue to bring it up as if it became fact. It's a little funny.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 30, 11 12:53 PM
should read "my guess"
Too much coffee today.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 30, 11 12:57 PM
Well stated Klauss, succinct and to the point!
To the Socialist nitwits: What is a 'fair" wage for someone who pulls weeds and maintains gardens and roses? How much can a business charge for those services? Do some math and come back with a rational answer. While you're at it factor in unemployment taxes, SS withholdings, business liability insurance, equipment purchase and maintainance, vehicle insurance, vehicle payments , fuel, mortgage on a shop, advertising, MTA tax, income tax and payroll. ...more
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Sep 30, 11 6:51 AM
1 member liked this comment
And just WHY are all those things so expensive?

Things that make you go, hmmmmmm...

Oh, I forgot, you don't look at the why.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 4:21 PM
ZZZZZZ man: If you want CEO wages, be the CEO. If you want to be an employee, be an employee, want to own a business, take the risk, get off your azz and do it! In your warped reality it seems that personal responsibility and self reliance are foreign concepts, just wait for the guvmint to take care of you, truly sad.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Sep 30, 11 7:27 AM
1 member liked this comment
This is not my "warped reality", o' wise one.

I do continually try for you to see the big picture outside of your little warped bubble of space time, but you just don't seem to get it.

I don't want the "guvmint" to take care of me, but I would thoroughly enjoy seeing them take the responsibility due them when it comes to regulating, and actually ENFORCING the rules that are on the books. I work hard for a living. I always have. Summers since I was 14, and full time in the work ...more
Sep 30, 11 3:48 PM appended by Mr. Z
And, for reference, while I attended trade school, I worked six nights a week, occasionally seven, and went to class five days a week for sixteen straight months, in an accelerated associates program. Sad, that you don't engage in more informed debate, but the above post does show improvement.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 3:48 PM
And you chose not to go into business... so you stop crying and except what your employer is willing to pay you for your service or find a new job! End of equation
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Sep 30, 11 11:16 PM

When you learn what a synonym is, the you have the right to tell me what to do when it comes to family.

Irascible fool.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 1, 11 12:58 AM
Accept... Leave me alone with the grammar crap tonight Z I'm tired I worked all day. Besides I was talking to Philth
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 1, 11 1:18 AM
Unless, ummm could it be? No I have wondered if like fake razza and progress.... you and Philth could be the same person. that would be something.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 1, 11 1:21 AM
You could be his alter ego... It does make sense the Philth character could be used when Z feels like making a childish statement bordering on a ultra partisan temper tantrum, While at the same time keeping his mild mannered persona intact. quit brilliant indeed.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 2, 11 8:40 PM
1 member liked this comment
Devious scheme, however my degree of scruples, and morality would prevent it's implementation.

Don't think things like that don't cross my mind, however...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 3, 11 7:41 PM
And still no solutions offered by Z and Phil.
Just false accusations and assumptions.

I employ 5 people PT wages ranging $13 - $17 per hour.
1 college student happy to have a flex sched
2 gents as second jobs in the evening happy to have a flex sched
2 moms working around school sched that I am sensitive to.
Of the 5, 4 like their work and are grateful. 1 of the moms is unhappy that she has to work, but she does a decent job.

I can't afford to pay FT salaries ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 30, 11 11:10 AM
1 member liked this comment
Apologies for grammatical and spelling errors.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 30, 11 11:13 AM
I offered to take a forensic look at how you operate.

You think 70k is a pittance? You make more than 2/3 of this country does right now. Do you know what I could do with 70k a year? With 140k I'd definitely own my own home. What is the most you have ever paid for a personal vehicle? Do you buy brand new? Do you clip coupons? What do you honestly, and creatively do to minimize every one of your personal expenses?

The working class has been abused for so long in this country, ...more
Sep 30, 11 3:56 PM appended by Mr. Z
On a personal note, I have my own tools, and have done all the work to my own vehicles. I have never paid collision on a brand new vehicle, just liability and comprehensive. The most I have ever had invested in a vehicle is my current one, and that is just shy of 11k counting vehicle cost, taxes, title, tags, and parts/tires over the course of four years. The only thing I don't do are windshields, tires, and alignment.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 3:56 PM
1 member liked this comment
I am aware that I still make a good salary as compared with the rest of the USA. You ignored the point though that I can not raise wages and I do what I can do for my workers.

I lease my vehicles - both small, good on gas, low payments. I'm sorry if that is offensive to you.

I own a home. A nice modest home that I purchased well before the explosion. I would not be able to afford my house if I were to buy it today. I'm sorry if you are offended by that too.

Again though, ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Sep 30, 11 4:59 PM
Not offended, or jealous. You don't know me, I don't know you, but I'd be willing to help you. And, please don't put phil's words in my mouth.

I'm where I am because of an accident, and a medical disability. There was no safety net for me when things went south, I lost everything I spent ten years working for, and I was in school before "the explosion". I was born too late to avoid the consequences of "The Roaring 20's 2.0".

I never criticized what you pay your employees, I ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Sep 30, 11 5:26 PM
This country faces a real crisis of income disparity and that is not good for the rich or the middle class or the poor. So many on these boards want to talk about class warfare and how the rich pay the majority of the taxes, completely ignoring that the rich are paying the lowest tax rate in 50 years, that taxes on capital gains are only 15%, that the wealthy pay more taxes because they control more of the wealth, and that Americans who don't earn enough to pay income tax still pay property taxes, ...more
By dagdavid (646), southampton on Sep 30, 11 6:15 PM
1 member liked this comment
Cap they pretend they don't know what Solyndra is and on P M S N B C they mentioned it like once and Chuck R tard got in trouble for mentioning it.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Sep 30, 11 11:12 PM
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 1, 11 12:54 AM
Joe is right, there has been a media blackout of Solgate
By They call me (2826), southampton on Oct 2, 11 10:17 PM
Z, posting on boards like these with anonymity allows us to sometimes be callous and insensitive. I'm guilty of this and not overly proud of it. It's easy to forget that a screen name is attached to a person. I'm sincerely sorry about your situation and hope things get better for you. We can disagree on many issues, but I really do wish you well.

Regarding the topic, I hope this economy turns around soon. As a business owner I can honestly tell you that giving someone a raise is a wonderful ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Oct 1, 11 8:42 AM
1 member liked this comment
Believe me, so do I.

But, "We" need to fight for it.

See you at "Occupy Wall St.".

I'll have the sign that says: End "de pecuniae" segregation!

And, yes, that's copyrighted in a body of work. Maybe someday it will be worth a few bucks in some textbooks somewhere.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 1, 11 6:41 PM
Secnd that Double, sorry about your situation ZZZZZ man, we will agree to disagree on issues, but on a personal level I hope things get better for you and yours.
Phil: I am not complaining about the costs associated with doing business in NY State, the info is provided to you to help when you come up with a wage that's fair to both the employer and employee, still waiting . My people get a $1 raise at the start of each season and a few bonuses along the way. Next year they'll be making $20 ...more
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Oct 1, 11 2:15 PM
1 member liked this comment
From Branko Milanovic, the author of "The Haves and the Have-Nots"

"Inequality is like cholesterol. I mean, you have good inequality, that would an inequality which would lead people to take risks, to actually work harder, to study more in order to make more money. But there is also bad inequality, that's an inequality which actually cements the acquired position, which doesn't let poor people acquire education if they don't have money and so on."

"We all know what inequality in ...more
By dagdavid (646), southampton on Oct 1, 11 6:01 PM
3 members liked this comment
Stellar post!
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 1, 11 6:44 PM
wow...too much for me to digest really...out of my league. if i understand correctly, if i just take some of my money and give it to someone who has less..and likewise, someone with more gives me some of theirs...then everyone will get skinny, live longer, we'll end teenage pregnancy and sick babies will become a thing of that past. and, we should do it also because if we don't i'm going to riot along with others who aren't at the top of the fiscal food chain. i'll take my chances and keep what ...more
Oct 2, 11 7:10 AM appended by kaluss45
but this is good, because God gave us free will and challenges us to give and help our fellow man in our own personal ways and to the best of our abilities. and i do give, a lot. but it shouldn't be anyone else's decision and nobody should judge if someone is giving too little. to each his own, just don't hurt one another.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Oct 2, 11 7:10 AM
No. You don't.

All the things you specified are avoided in a better balanced society, by education, and circumstance. These countries do exist. The fiscal anarchy, self entitlement, ego, avarice, and luxury of the few would no longer batter those who they could not run a business without into poverty. We need more small business, and less corporate chains. Most corporate retail workers, could use a union. However, they (the corporotocracy) usually find a way to put a stop to organization. ...more
Oct 2, 11 12:43 PM appended by Mr. Z
"Res ipsa loquitur." ~ "The thing itself speaks."
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 2, 11 12:43 PM
2 members liked this comment
Unions are the problem. They have brought this country to its knees
By They call me (2826), southampton on Oct 2, 11 10:14 PM
2 members liked this comment
Some business models are, and are extremely successful.

Isthmus engineering is a prime example.

Fifteen million a year in revenue, and all the employees have equal say regarding compensation.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 3, 11 7:05 PM
We are all guaranteed equal opportunity, not equal outcome! Class warfare is a waste of time and fuels the socialist nitwits such as the parasites protesting on Wall STreet.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Oct 3, 11 3:16 AM
You are simply fortunate that Wall St. did not take your home, or bankrupt your county, your school system, or your country (Greece, Italy) with untold millions of dollars in debt due to "swap" deals. The absolute last thing on Earth ANYONE on Wall Street wants is for a forensic examination their actions in a critical manner. And so far, you appear to be honoring their wishes quite dutifully. A blind servant to a system that has brokered the majority of this country into the poorhouse. THAT'S ...more
Oct 3, 11 6:41 PM appended by Mr. Z
And, THOUSANDS of small businesses failed, due to a recession which was wholly avoidable. Key people who attempted to prevent it were either ignored, or outright blackballed. Two MAJOR factors your business did not, was the 26 TRILLION DOLLAR raid on the U.S. Treasury (TARP), and of course, geographic location.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 3, 11 6:41 PM
OH, and for reference, if you think the "free market" determines CEO salaries, it doesn't.

Just the members of the corporate board do.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 3, 11 6:43 PM
In addition, it's a good thing you didn't invent the polio vaccine.

Millions would have died, that didn't thanks to Salk not taking a dime. In your world, they wouldn't have afforded it.
Oct 3, 11 7:09 PM appended by Mr. Z
OK, so disablity is more common than suffocating to death, but, you get the point...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 3, 11 7:09 PM
Philth, If you are an Obama fan you believe in the redistribution of wealth. Take from the rich and give it to the poor. If I earn $250,000 then Obama wants to punish me for my success. Democracy is right to have a business and earn money. Socialism is being required to share the money I earn with everyone else.
So If I risked everything to own my business according to you if I am successful you believe I should redistribute my wealth to all my employees.

What did they risk? Did they ...more
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 3, 11 10:50 PM
Would you have had to take such severe risks, if they didn't engineer the economy to implode, ignoring all sane warnings by educated people?

Nope. You wouldn't have.
Oct 4, 11 5:21 PM appended by Mr. Z
I DARE you to read, and absorb "Griftopia", by Matt Taibbi, and still believe we live in a capitalist democracy. We don't. We live in an Oligarchy, where Socialism supports the "elite", or "super-rich".
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 5:21 PM
And, I'd tell you to read the Citibank memo regarding Plutocracy, but they systemically removed the memo from public view.

Res ipsa loquitur.
Oct 4, 11 5:46 PM appended by Mr. Z
I can email you a copy. Or, I could print you one.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 5:46 PM
I suggest if you are jealous and want to run your own socialist company, then quit your job and start your own business, Then you like Warren Buffet would have an opportunity to put your $ where your mouth is and give your employees all your wealth. Most businesses don't make a profit for 8 years anyway, so if you want to give away your profit You will have to work 12 hour days for a long time to get that opportunity.And at the end of those long years I predict like Warren Buffet you would be full ...more
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 3, 11 10:57 PM
See above...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 5:21 PM
I think its futile. Phil and Mr. Z are on Wall Street, protesting the very liberal fat cats that keep their movement afloat! Without Wall Street, there is no election or re-election of the current president. Meanwhile, message number 2 seems to be the desire for so called freedom, while pushing for bigger and more intrusive government. I thought dissent was patriotic, but it seems to be hip and incoherent.
Oct 4, 11 6:48 AM appended by kaluss45
mr. z - guns don't kill people, people kill people..same goes for wall street. you cannot be against big business and for bigger government, they are one and the same.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Oct 4, 11 6:48 AM
1 member liked this comment
Without Wall St., there would not be such a concentration of wealth, and power, that it hijacks our very democratic process.

TARP passed, the people be d****d.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 5:23 PM
Regarding your appendum, big government is not our problem, and too much of any good thing, including freedom is a bad thing.

This illusion of "Big Government", covers up recklessness, special interests, lobbyists, and all the things that defile democracy.

Freedom, taken too far, is anarchy.

By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 7:30 PM
1 member liked this comment
I knew it was only a matter of time before stupidity in the media spin shone through.

Now, "Occupy Wall St." is a "leftist" organization.

What's next? Dubbing Alan Greenspan the next Jesus Christ?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 5:19 PM

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

Posted on September 30, 2011 by NYCGA

This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on september 29, 2011


As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 5:38 PM
1 member liked this comment
You want a SERIOUS wake-up call?

Google "We are the 99%", and read the 41 pages and counting of real people, with real lives, which have been ruined by how our society has been run into the ground.

By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 4, 11 6:49 PM
here is a wake up call...Andrew Breitbart's report at Big Government detailing how then-candidate Barack Obama shared a podium and marched with Malik Zulu Shabazz, leader of the New Black Panthers.And how white house visitors logs show Shabazz has been a guest on several occasions. just another bad association to add to the list> I would say Barry's chickens have come home to roost.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 5, 11 1:24 AM
As I recall, the Black Panthers have a history of being militant, and somewhat radical. What they have evolved into now that the time that spawned them has passed, is open to interpretation.

However, the man in question has been observed to be anti-semitic, and his speeches tell the tale. He's no Bhudda...

By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 7, 11 10:24 AM
Herman Cain rises, Rick Perry slides in new CBS News poll... Yes We Cain!
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 5, 11 1:04 AM
1 member liked this comment
This man caught my eye:

Photo with 167 notes

I am 62 years old. I have worked honestly and hard my whole life (since I was 14) because that is how you “realize The American Dream.”

I was a home builder and designer.

In 1980, the “Savings & Loan Crisis” forced me out of work and out of business. (the government helped the banks survive…) I slowly rebuilt my life and business.

In 2007, the “Sub-Prime Mortgage Crisis” ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 6:01 AM
So did this one:

Higher education is a bubble, run by the same kind of people who control our banks, our homes, our health. My mother came to this country believing it was the only place where one’s hard work and education could allow you to transcend the bonds of race, gender, socioeconomic class.

I am about to receive my Ph.D. in a technical science from an Ivy League school. I earned scholarships and worked two full-time jobs in college to get here. I have worked ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 6:05 AM
there is a blog whereby some guy brags about writing over 33 pages of false stories on that site.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Oct 5, 11 7:33 AM
With pictures?

And multiple handwriting styles?

I'd hope the admins are more careful than that...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 2:05 PM
does it matter that the sub prime mortgage crisis and the savings and loan crisis was cause by the very government hacks they these knuckleheads are in bed with. does it matter that now that the federal government is in charge of college loans that the prez has proposed a law that gives the man access to everyone's cell phone so that the man can hire mercinaries (sp?) to chase after citizens for debt? do you realize that since your saviors in the federal government media complex have been involved ...more
Oct 5, 11 6:48 AM appended by kaluss45
unfortunately i have never bought into the concept that youth = ignorance. sorry.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Oct 5, 11 6:48 AM
"failed liberal policies"?


Our current crises are due to the policies of Alan Greenspan, and his disciples. The same Alan Greenspan who looked over Charles Keating's books, and found nothing wrong.

Dude, I don't know how old you are, and don't take this the wrong way, but you have alot left to learn. As do I.
Oct 5, 11 2:20 PM appended by Mr. Z
If you get the chance, you may want to look into the S&L crisis, and how it's socialistic bailout of the rich (again) damaged the middle class, increased the federal deficit, and left the "elite" unscathed as usual.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 2:20 PM
1 member liked this comment
Neither have I.

But, none of us know everything.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 3:48 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Oct 5, 11 9:11 AM
Back to the original topic: Where does the almight federal government get the authority to set wages in excess of the minimum wage??!! Any of the big government worshiping folks here care to take a crack at this outrage?
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Oct 5, 11 12:31 PM
I think they call it "keeping up with the Jones' ".

I thumbed a great book about tomatoes a while back, part of which focused on Florida, and the equivalent of modern day slavery on the farms which produce them there.

What they try to do with something like this is legislate personal responsibility, to those who take none. What it often does in the long run, is harm those who do.

If the cost of living here were not so exorbitant, we may be able to fall in line with this ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 2:12 PM
to klauss45:

Mea culpa. I forgot that the Press annihilates any post that cites internet competition for the readers' attention, no matter how relevant.

I was censored for naming the website to which you referred wherein people post anecdotal accounts of their own misfortune at the hands of the money-lenders. I questioned whether the anonymous blogger whom you mention actually wrote 33 pages of false stories. That would be hundreds of stories (and photographs) and the majority ...more
Oct 5, 11 1:52 PM appended by highhatsize
Here's a thought. Since there is universal irate frustration that the perpetrators of the real estate fraud have walked away with billions, unscathed, how about one of the presidential candidates proposing a Constitutional Amendment to except the financial sector from the prohibition against ex post facto law and the right to trial by jury. Maybe we could get some of those trillions back and, at the very least, sent Blankfein et cie. to the pen for their unconscionable behavior. A drastic cure but unless we do something they will be back next year with another devastating and novel con against which no laws have yet been written. Such a proposal would certainly affect my vote in 2012.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Oct 5, 11 1:52 PM
3 members liked this comment
Yeah, that turnpike deal was unsuccesful, but the city of Chicago doesn't own their parking meters...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 3:04 PM
Didn't you read the five page proposal to Congress in '08, asking to raid the Treasury?

It included FULL IMMUNITY from present, or future prosecution.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 6:13 PM
to Mr. Z:

Could you provide a cite? I can't find the proposal. Was it granted? Moreover, there is currently a petition drive ongoing to stop Congress from agreeing the the US AG's request for immunity for Wall Street for uninvestigated crimes, suggesting that any immunity, if granted, was less than total.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Oct 6, 11 8:27 AM
It's actually on film. A Congressman holds up the document, and comments on it.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 6, 11 7:31 PM
Philathome, Guess the fiasco on Wall St. That you have been championing has had no impact Tuesday, October 04, 2011
A generic Republican now holds a 6 point advantage over Obama in a hypothetical 2012 match-up for the week ending Sunday, Oct. 2
The latest Rasmussen national survey of Likely U.S. Voters finds the generic Republican earning 47% support, while the president picks up only 41% of the vote. Read My Lips No New Taxes! Now enjoy the rest of your afternoon.
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Oct 5, 11 2:41 PM
Well, nothing ever happened overnight.

Not even Rome.

Obama's biggest mistake, well, one of them, was enlisting the people who MADE the mess to occupy posts in his cabinet.

Oct 5, 11 2:53 PM appended by Mr. Z
I tried to be lenient with the rope I gave him, but he still hung 99% of us out to dry with it...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 2:53 PM
1 member liked this comment
Man, I forgot this one:

"Growth, for the sake of growth, is the ideology of a cancer cell."

~ Edward Abbey

Y'know, his photo reminds me of someone...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 4:10 PM
I told you so.
Oct 5, 11 5:02 PM appended by Mr. Z
"Job creators". Riiiiight...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 5, 11 5:02 PM
They fight like cats and dogs for the camera, and after the show is over, hop into bed together like a john, and a cheap hooker.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 6, 11 5:33 PM
1 member liked this comment
Phil@Hufingtonpost.com, Nice way to take off the slippers and put on your marching boots, Keep getting out those talking points like Ed Schultz, George Soros and Robert Reich ordered you to.
By They call me (2826), southampton on Oct 7, 11 10:36 AM
2 members liked this comment
Thats crap and you know it , I saw that interview. Nice try I still have it D.V.R.ed as well . You will see our jobs plan in 14 months... We will see who is toast. The 48% of the country who pays no taxes played their once every 25 year scam to the hilt and enough of the under 35 crowd as now seen what any one living through the Carter nightmare already knew. Its over nutbag...Cain is the man! And he never singled out just AA ....Get a job and stop your socialist rants.because when its over you ...more
Oct 7, 11 11:26 PM appended by joe hampton
Michael Moore
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 7, 11 11:26 PM
Our guy is on a roll, Mr Cain has just come in with 68 % in the GOP field in todays daily news poll,Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain described the Occupy Wall Street protests as anti-capitalist. Unemployed Wall Street protesters only have themselves to blame for lacking a job, so says Herman Cain."Don't blame Wall Street, don't blame the big banks, if you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself. It is not someone's fault if they succeeded, it is someone's fault if they ...more
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Oct 5, 11 9:53 PM
2 members liked this comment
That's not going to get alot of votes from people with disabilities, medical problems, or those who had a sudden death in the family. That will mount you some debt, in short order.

That has to be one of the MOST blatantly ignorant statements I have ever heard, ignorant on a level that is staggering in the information age. And, I DO have a top ten.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 6, 11 5:35 PM
This was a story that also caught my eye. I guess he just didn't work hard enough either! If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale!

6th October 2011
Photo with 70 notes

"I am a 28 year old MENSA member with a B.S. in physics. My wife served her term in the Air Force honorably. I have marketable skills and experience as a scientist, a web developer, and a business analyst. I am (fortunately) employed. We do not own HD TVs, expensive automobiles, use cable ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 6, 11 6:06 PM
1 member liked this comment
that caught my eye too. a 28 year old missing a lot of teeth because she has no money for dental care. perhaps she should try brushing and flossing...mensa member yeah right...hahahaha.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Oct 7, 11 10:39 AM
1 member liked this comment
Some people have gum disease that has nothing to do with oral hygiene. Many people of English descent just have poor teeth, nothing they can really do about it.

You definitely are not a MENSA candidate yourself, that much is abundantly clear.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 8, 11 3:13 PM
how dare you! i am too a mensa candidate...just not a member.
By kaluss45 (44), southampton on Oct 8, 11 4:18 PM
All the world, is indeed a stage. Something, something, I forget.

What's the next Act?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 7, 11 1:31 AM
Next act... Fast and furious and Solyndra become major scandals and obama and Holder are directly implicated. In a desperate attempt to get the spotlight of themselves they try and incite the unions and losers camping in the streets to riot in the name of social justice....Developing
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 7, 11 7:02 AM
My son will be 14 years old next summer. There had BETTER be a job for him somewhere in this "summer paradise" or I am going to raise hell at town meetings.

He can work in a restaurant kitchen, he can do a farm job, he can work at a garden center or supermarket loading and unloading (he's a big kid). He'll take minimum wage.
By btdt (449), water mill on Oct 7, 11 12:11 PM
Yesterdays rant of a press conference was very un presidential, there were several things that stood out. Obama continued his compulsive need to blame others for his problems. He continued to make transparently untrue claims (such as implying that “every independent economist” agrees with his second stimulus package when it is his cerry picked few and insisting that the Solyndra decision was “made on the merits”).
By 27dan (2854), Southampton on Oct 7, 11 1:31 PM
He continued to portray himself as a man of incomparable political virtues and his opponents as selfish, uncooperative partisans.
None of this is new; in fact, the act is all getting a bit tiresome. But what particularly amused me is the president’s imperiousness.
In an interview I saw after the speech Michael Reagan said if his father was alive he would be telling obama, Mr President, there you go again.
By 27dan (2854), Southampton on Oct 7, 11 1:35 PM
Ahhh, the fortunes of Reagan's "deregulation"...

Matt Taibbi | October 6, 7:51 AM ET

"Robert, you've been duped.

The bubble was not caused by any effort to put people into homes. It was caused by the unregulated derivatives market. Once banks figured out they could sell junk subprime loans as AAA-rated investments, nobody had to force them to sell mortgages to poor people. They were lining up to give those mortgages away because they knew a) they weren't going to hold ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Oct 8, 11 3:16 PM
First came Clinton's anti red lining polices then came the Barney Frank Chris Dodd and Andrew Mazzillo your so called unregulated markets could not have had anything to work with if not for the root cause. just let the system correct itself and get out of the way. the people who took on these loans and are not able to pay them back should lose their homes. to the same point corporations that are "To big to fail" should be allowed to fail. stop prolonging the pain we should have learned this from ...more
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Oct 9, 11 9:14 AM