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Mar 25, 2015 11:47 AMPublication: The Southampton Press

Alternatives To Tuckahoe King Kullen Proposal Are Debated

Mar 25, 2015 12:34 PM

Opponents of a proposed King Kullen in Tuckahoe have largely acknowledged the need for a new supermarket in the Southampton area, but they have said the targeted site is the wrong place because of the potential impact on traffic along chronically congested County Road 39 and some Southampton Village side streets.

On Tuesday night, at the fourth public meeting on the shopping center proposal, Southampton Town Supervisor Anna Throne-Holst tasked opponents, particularly Southampton Village officials, with identifying a potential alternative site for a new supermarket if the Tuckahoe proposal were to be rejected by the town.

In at times testy exchanges, the supervisor challenged opponents who seemed to say they see the need, or at least the desire, for an additional and larger grocery store but don’t want it built on County Road 39 or at the fringe of the village’s residential neighborhoods.

“We keep hearing from people … that we need this,” Ms. Throne-Holst said. “If you can show me a place that is better situated to put this, then please share it with me, because we have not been able to find it. If this is not the place then we need to find it.”

But village officials said they still don’t think the perceived desire for another store outweighs the potential impact on traffic patterns.

“People would like to have it—I don’t know that we need it,” Southampton Village Trustee Nancy McGann said. “I feel we will have a huge increase in traffic on our side streets.”

Town Councilwoman Bridget Fleming, who posed the most skeptical questions to developer Robert Morrow’s consultants on Tuesday night, said the town should consider the difference between the need for another grocery store and the proposal for a 40,000-square-foot supermarket.

The village at one time was home to three grocery stores but now hosts only one, Waldbaum’s, and two smaller upscale markets in Schmidt’s Market and Citarella. Ms. Throne-Holst noted that the village had rejected an expansion proposal several years ago by the owners of the Waldbaum’s property.

The supervisor, pointing to information presented by the developers about burgeoning growth in and around the village in recent decades, also questioned whether there would be such a substantial increase in traffic in reality.

“What I’m struggling with here is that these people are out shopping already,” Ms. Throne-Holst said. “If you live in the village … you are, in fact, traveling the roads to get to grocery shopping. When the village talks about how this impacts it … how is the village proposing then to deal with all of this build-out—4,000 new units since these comp plans were put together?”

Earlier in the evening, consultants for Mr. Morrow outlined the growth of the residential neighborhoods within a three-mile radius of the site proposed for the King Kullen. Since 1970, at least 1,967 new homes have been built in the focus area, an 85-percent increase, with hundreds more units already approved but not yet built.

The developers and their supporters have said the explosion in development in Tuckahoe, North Sea and Water Mill over the last four decades has left the village’s lone, small grocery store wholly inadequate to serve the needs of the surrounding neighborhoods. Instead, the developers have claimed, residents must trek to supermarkets in Bridgehampton and Hampton Bays, each about 6.5 miles from the property in question.

By building a grocery store in Tuckahoe, consultant Patrick Lenihan said on Tuesday, the town could eliminate as much as 700,000 miles of vehicle travel from the stretches of roads leading out of the area toward other shopping destinations.

Town Planning and Development Administrator Kyle Collins told board members that town planners identified just five properties that meet the minimum 5-acre requirement for a shopping center zoning designation and are also adjacent to roadways sufficient or appropriate for handling the level of traffic a grocery store generates.

Two of the properties, the Southampton Driving Range and the Elks Lodge property, have been recommended for preservation by the town for use as recreational and cultural assets. A third, the former Long Island Automotive Museum, is complicated by its proximity to the intersection with Sandy Hollow Road. The fourth, the land owned by the Southampton Full Gospel Church, is not expected to be available for sale. Nor is the KeySpan peaker plant site on David White’s Lane, the final qualifying property in the region.

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Alleging that placement at this site will lessen traffic seems a mite disingenuous.

How about all that new traffic coming from areas to the east and west residents of which currently travel to either Bridgehampton or Hampton Bays. How many additional residents will drive west from the east and east from the west? No one can say with a straight face that some percentage of those who might now head west to Hampton Bays won't instead head east adding to the traffic on County Road 39 and Montauk ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 25, 15 5:22 PM
This developer acts like he is providing a community service by putting in his development. He is out to make money. He buys a piece of property and then wants zoning changed to make more money. Seriously, people from Southampton already drive to Walmart, Costco and BJ's as well as Trader Joe's to get what they want. There are grocery stores in Hampton Bays and Bridgehampton already, People also use Amazon and Pea pod for grocery delivery. We do not need another grocery store or strip development. ...more
By metsfan2 (159), southampton on Mar 25, 15 5:57 PM
And, perhaps the Supervisor should lose her attitude. I don't think the question is if not here then where. The question is this piece of property suitable for how this developer wants to develop it?
By metsfan2 (159), southampton on Mar 25, 15 6:03 PM
spot on observation. Supervisor does not understand that her duty is to protect the public from over development, not developers.
By jgordon (7), Shoreham on Mar 28, 15 9:07 PM
1 member liked this comment
Do you think it might be her newly aquired real estate broker's license doing the talking? She's just preparing for her retirement as supervisor in 2017... or perhaps she'll be turned out this year... it might be rough times ahead for the beige party .... oh my bad... the independence party...
By Split Rock (68), North Haven on Apr 4, 15 3:49 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 25, 15 6:38 PM
The success of the Morrow/ThroneHolst campaign to make their change of zone to BENEFIT developer zone change application about the "need" for a supermarket can be read in the first line of this article. How many opponents have "acknowledged" the need for a new supermarket? That is a gross and misleading statement. The only issue here is TRAFFIC, A VERY ILL-ADVISED ZONE CHANGE THAT GOES AGAINST REASON, EXPERIENCE & PLANNING & PURE, UNADULTERATED GREED. Naturally the developers want attention ...more
By Phanex (83), Southampton on Mar 25, 15 8:18 PM
ATH behavior to Nancy McGann was totally unacceptable!
By metsfan2 (159), southampton on Mar 25, 15 8:30 PM
2 members liked this comment
Surprised you say that. I just watched the meeting on TV, and found that, although I am no fan of ATH, she simply held her ground with McGann and the Village Board. And did McGann not hear herself when, after moaning about how people from Shinnecock Hills and North Sea would travel over Village back roads, she went on to say how much she enjoyed traveling the back roads of North Sea and Water Mill on her way to Bridgehampton?
By Grandmom (8), Southampton on Mar 25, 15 11:59 PM
Apart from the fact that County Road 39 is the worst possible location for a shopping mall with a mega-grocery store, the last grocery store that's needed is yet another area-saturated, too-basic, and expensive King Kullen. What's needed is a Fairway Market (gorgeous produce with over a hundred organic items very reasonably priced, dry-aged and grass-fed beef offerings, coffee barista on duty with huge variety of beans. etc.), or a Trader Joe's, or an Uncle Guiseppe's (fantastic supermarket with ...more
By June Bug (2596), SOUTHAMPTON on Mar 25, 15 8:58 PM
4 members liked this comment
So, you would be ok with this plan if it was a fairway?

Why is a main artery a bad place for a grocery store? Should it be put on Hill Street?




By Draggerman (941), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 9:57 PM
1 member liked this comment
King Kullen will get this built.If not in this location another one close by.They got the cash and have a good relationship with the town. Yes King Kullen is over priced and is not as good as other supermarkets but they are still family owned and operated and they are a Long Island company.
By velcros69 (10), Rockledge on Mar 26, 15 10:37 PM
No, not ok with this plan on 39.
I said apart from 39 being an insane location for a mega-market (which is not needed--a smaller market would do ), we need something other than King Kullen. The area is already saturated with them, and what's needed is diversity and competition. Yet another one does not serve the community.
As for the location, an accident on 39 creates a total logjam --got stuck in one on Hill Street for the better part of an hour --very scary when nothing on either ...more
By June Bug (2596), SOUTHAMPTON on Mar 28, 15 9:54 PM
Yes, Anna's attitude towards some of the speakers, especially toward Ceale Havermeyer, was appalling. There were audible gasps in the audience as her claws came out. Anna is anything but impartial as one could clearly see by her thinly guised defense of the developers' plan. The community interest is NOT Anna's top priority. Anna is Anna's top priority. Morrow's son-in-law made a big contribution to her 2013 campaign. Is this not why we have public disclosure forms? The majority of her contributions ...more
By Earthgirl (52), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 5:37 AM
I don’t agree at all. The Havemeyer’s and McGann have been at just about every hearing, and each time they get up they assert variations on the same themes. For the Havemeyer’s, it’s an acknowledgement that we need a new supermarket (one of the few opponents who are reasonable enough to actually say this), but do not think that this particular location is the right place (which is the disingenuous part of their argument, since they clearly know - Fred was a Town Trustee - ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 4:06 PM
2 members liked this comment
The question "If not here, where" is ridiculous. Discussing the Elks property or the driving range makes no sense. They aren't for sale.

The arguments I've heard against the proposed grocery store are non valid NIMBY BS. One speaker said he was against the dust that construction would bring. The debate isn't whether Mr. Morrow et al can build on their property, its whether they can build this. They could put an Applebees and a car dealership on the property without anything more than Town ...more
By Draggerman (941), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 8:12 AM
2 members liked this comment
Earthgirl, if what you say is true about Anna's contributions why haven't the the press, particularly this publication , done a story on it? Mike Wright?
By Justsay'n (42), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 8:32 AM
3 members liked this comment
Calling our Supervisor , Queen Anna , a condescending witch gets red inked? And Phanex' comment stays? What's up with that? Her Royal Highness is not looking out for the residents of this Town but is bending over backwards for the developers .Now why could that be?
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 26, 15 9:02 AM
I keep seeing references to this being a "large shopping mall" and a "mega-grocery store". Why do these beliefs persist? A 40,000 square foot grocery store is not "mega". An article in Time Magazine from 2011 stated that the average grocery store size was 45,000 square feet - so the one proposed is actually below average in size. The Hampton Bays Stop & Shop is about 45,000 SF and the HB King Kullen is 40,000 SF. No one was saying those were "mega" grocery stores when they were developed. ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 9:43 AM
Her Royal Highness has a history of forcefully going against the wishes of the residents of the Town and siding with development at all cost. The condo complex in North Sea, the CPI debacle, the development of the golf course in Quogue and now a mega store on highly travelled, overburdened and dangerous CR 39. Does anyone else see a pattern here? The Queen is out and Her reign is over soon,on to the wonderful world of East End real estate but we need to be vigilant observing who on the Town Board ...more
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 26, 15 9:43 AM
Bring on the influx of business and development! The days of Southampton and the CR39 corridor being a quiet beach community are over...time to adapt and advance. Better than the rest of CR39 and the dilapidated buildings. Options for shopping encourage competition and the consumer wins. Traffic sucks anyways...May as well have somewhere nice to get off and shop.
By Mouthampton (437), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 11:57 AM
Highway business areas are zoned for low volume traffic - car dealerships, restaurants, service businesses - not high volume supermarkets that get over 1000 visits a day. This is to keep traffic flowing through to other areas. A woman at this meeting said that the manager at a nearby King Kullen told her his store had 1,500 sales the day before. That was with snow still on the ground. Just imagine how many the proposed market would have in high summer when our population triples. Cha-ching! No wonder ...more
By moonpie (43), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 1:45 PM
2 members liked this comment
Bridgehampton KK - Montauk Highway
Hampton Bays KK - Montauk Highyway
Stop & Shop HB - Montauk Highway
Wild by Nature HB - Montauk Highway
Stop & Shop Riverhead - Route 58
Costco Riverhead - Route 58
King Kullen Riverhead - Route 58

Common denominator? MAIN ROADWAYS

Master Plans and Land Use Plans don't zone specific properties for Grocery Stores because you usually only need 1 in a community. So either there is one existing, or in the case of Tuckahoe, ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 26, 15 2:41 PM
1 member liked this comment
the developers complaining about the commute to the supermarkets is a laugher.

" Kyle Collins told board members that town planners identified just five properties that meet the minimum 5-acre requirement for a shopping center "

well that's the issue! there is no more land to develop. for any reason. what are the developers going to do in 5 years? where are they goig to build if everything is already condos, malls and dam reserve!!
.
just like the town board amends zoning ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Mar 26, 15 1:57 PM
Unfortunately, the pro speakers at this meeting outnumbered the cons by well over two to one. We got swamped. What's going on here, people? We gotta get out there, speak at hearings, write letters, post on 27east, or we're gonna lose. Do it!
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 26, 15 2:52 PM
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"post on 27east"? TB, I know you don't consider posting here to be a reasonable form of civic involvement?
By But I'm a blank! (1283), Hampton Bays on Mar 26, 15 3:13 PM
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Blank, I'm not sure what you mean by "a reasonable form of civic involvement," but if you're suggesting that I don't think much attention is paid to 27east comments, you're right. So why did I include it among the things I'm urging people to do? Because every little bit helps.

What doesn't help -- if you're serious about defeating this project -- is wasting time nitpicking my comments when you could be writing a strong letter to the Press, or getting something done now so you'll have ...more
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 26, 15 10:51 PM
What appears to be going on here is that people want a new supermarket in the area and are tired of a small cadre of naysayers constantly carrying the day. People are tired of looking at derelict buildings and properties at the entrance to the south fork and are tired of cramped, filthy, don't-give-a-damn operators of the existing markets.

They're also tired of the overblown rhetoric of "mega malls" and theme parks spouted by those whose arguments fall flat without them and lame attempts ...more
By VOS (1230), WHB on Mar 26, 15 11:09 PM
No pass on that one TB. Postings here are not "every little bit" of help. Urge them to get out and take part in the process. You know most of the posters here never partake, but find comfort and solace in posting here thinking it makes a difference to someone somewhere. Make a phone call, write a letter, electronic or otherwise. Obviously this is germane to all issues not just this one.
By But I'm a blank! (1283), Hampton Bays on Mar 27, 15 10:01 AM
Blank, we agree on the priority of means, just not on the value of 27east posting -- I say it's limited, you say it's zero. Once more, though, in the time you've spent disputing me here -- in a medium you believe is pointless -- you could have sat down and written a good letter to the editor. In that same time, I've consulted with several active opponents of the project, exchanged ideas, and started my next letter, following one of two weeks ago. What have you done?
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 27, 15 11:28 AM
In response to the March 26 post by VOS above:

First, please tell us what you mean by the "naysayers constantly carrying the day." Seems to me that just about all the proposals of this type in Southampton have been approved. (Why is that, Town Board?) Looks like the naysayers are losing, not winning.

What you call "derelict buildings and properties" may be preferable, in some people's opinion, to big-box stores and asphalt prairies that make us look like any other cookie-cutter ...more
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 28, 15 11:08 AM
2 members liked this comment
I would disagree with both perspectives - every little bit and none.

These comments are read by the politically active members of our Town population and by our elected officials.

It goes without saying they are read by the journalists who decide what stories appear in the paper and to some extent what slant those stories and potential editorials take.

The audience may be far more limited than a hard copy letter in the Press, but do not confuse the number of readers with ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 28, 15 4:37 PM
Not a damn thing. And I wont. I don't have an issue with this. The point of my comment was that encouraging a post here does little or nothing to advance your position.
By But I'm a blank! (1283), Hampton Bays on Mar 28, 15 4:41 PM
when is the next public hearing/
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 26, 15 3:09 PM
Tues. April 14 at 1pm. The meeting schedules and agendas are available on the town website. Check under "portal".
By Earthgirl (52), Southampton on Mar 27, 15 2:03 AM
2 members liked this comment
And....campaign finance disclosures are available to all on the NY BOE website.
By Earthgirl (52), Southampton on Mar 27, 15 2:07 AM
1 member liked this comment
If this were just a grocery store and not a mall with attendant other stores perhaps a location could be found. ANd if it were to be say half way between the grocery stores in Hampton Bays and Southampton, then that wold put it at the Stony Brook Campus location, which would actually be a great spot, right about where the old gymnasium is now.
By AL (82), southampton on Mar 27, 15 3:10 AM
3 members liked this comment
What is your definition of a "mall"? It's a restaurant, a grocery store and maybe a couple stores. How is that a "mall"?

So you think the State should sell the land to a developer, allow that developer to get a COZ and then build a grocery store that backs up to private residences on 2 sides?

And how is moving the location 1.33 miles west making it "half way between" KK and Waldbaums?
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 27, 15 9:25 AM
how about that stretch of road btw cr39 and Shinnecock GC or btw cr39 and the Campus and train tracks ?? that's rather wide thereon both north & south sides!

easy access from the east and west and with the another light it wont be slow down traffic at all because you have to go slow anyway.

and why cant the golf course share some of its land for the public good? we need this convenience mart!
..
By david h (405), southampton on Mar 27, 15 11:45 AM
The definition of "mall" is a "retail complex containing a variety of stores and often restaurants housed in connected or adjacent buildings", so this proposal is correctly IDed as a "mall". And make no mistake, this mall will in time grow larger once the approvals are in for the adjoining property. This must be voted down.
By June Bug (2596), SOUTHAMPTON on Mar 27, 15 12:03 PM
3 members liked this comment
3 buildings does not make a mall as it's not a "retail complex". What "malls" do you like shopping in? The ones that aren't in your backyard like in HB and Bridgehampton?
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 27, 15 2:26 PM
the farther away the mall the better.
By david h (405), southampton on Mar 28, 15 7:45 PM
1 member liked this comment
Oh, so you mean...

Not In My Back Yard (NIMBY?) Just wanted to clarify...
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 6:58 PM
just like most developers > I am huge NIMBY when it comes to building condos and malls and instant neighborhoods and more roads .. and more congestion creation and tax stress creation. like them id prefer all that not where I live (or across town)
..
I am not a nimby when it comes to Nature ..but by nature I mean planting trees and saving wildlife habitat and preserving open space .. so you have me confuffled (real word, used in the Caribbean)
..
but im not a nimby for a gentlemans ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Mar 30, 15 12:45 PM
Thanks for the BOE info Earthgirl. Mike Wright?
By Justsay'n (42), Southampton on Mar 27, 15 8:13 AM
2 members liked this comment
A mall is defined as a "retail complex containing a variety of stores and ofen restaurants housed in connected or adjacent buildings. Also known as a 'shopping center'." This proposal is well within the definition of "mall", and will most certainly expand over time.
By June Bug (2596), SOUTHAMPTON on Mar 27, 15 11:57 AM
1 member liked this comment
The above comment is an utterly absurd statement. A mall is defined as a shopping complex of greater than 400,000 sq ft and beginning at about 40+ stores (see the International Council of Shopping Centers website). If you’ve even lived anywhere but here it would be very clear to you that a mall is a completely different facility and a “neighborhood center”, something between 30,000 - 125,000 sq ft (Tuckahoe is just 58,500), and typically anchored by a supermarket, is what is being ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 27, 15 10:28 PM
2 members liked this comment
You're totally wrong. Google "What is a mall"? and you will see definitions from Merriam Webster, Dictionary.com, Wikipedia, etc., all of which define "mall" just as I posted, and define what is being proposed for County Road 39.
By June Bug (2596), SOUTHAMPTON on Mar 28, 15 1:38 AM
You should consult the International Council of Shopping Centers website, which is where Wiki editors sourced the material. Nowhere does the ICSC call neighborhood centers "malls". Dictionary.com delineates between mall and shopping center. Merriam points out that that it is "many" stores, likely in one building. You can parse this all you want, but no sensible person would look at this application as a mall in the way reasonable people understand it.
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 28, 15 11:52 AM
Mayor Epley and Nancy Mcgann had no concerns when Mr Epley's father in law got approvals for 100 condos less than a half mile from the king kullen site. Nancy Mcgann talks about congestion. Where was her head when they approved a Citarellas with mo parking right in the heart of the village?
By chief1 (2784), southampton on Mar 27, 15 10:40 PM
Nancy lives off of CR39 by PC Richard...of course she would be opposed to development in this area for her own reasons...not the common good.
By Mouthampton (437), Southampton on Mar 31, 15 10:43 AM
The larger canard is the statement that a mega supermarket is needed here!
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 28, 15 6:51 AM
This "Mega Supermarket" is 10,000 sf smaller than KK BH.
from
I love the buzz words that the opponents of this project are using.

I've been to the meetings. I spoke in favor of this project. I've heard the nonsensical arguments from the other side. Now, somehow, the discussion on this news board is to get a grocery store built on land that is owned by the state. That'is behind railroad tracks from the highway. Even if this was a remote possibility, what happens to Mr. Morrows ...more
By Draggerman (941), Southampton on Mar 28, 15 8:21 AM
No need for a project of this scale , especially sited on CR 39. Let Morrow build within the existing zoning regs. Queen Anna kissing the posterior of d amn near any developer that slithers up looking for a COZ is getting old.
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 28, 15 8:39 AM
2 members liked this comment
I didn't find the exchanges at the latest hearing to be outside the appropriate give-and-take of public affairs. What seemed to come out of the discussion between the Supervisor and Nancy McGann is that the Town and Southampton Village need to work together on this, and that's a good thing.

Just right. As I've noted, the Village refused Waldbaum's application to expand not long go, and maybe that needs to be revisited. Apart from that, since so much of this seems to impact the Village, ...more
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 28, 15 3:30 PM
George, you really nailed it.

The haphazard planning done in the past has left us trying to get back to the original goals of limiting development. The farms are gone. Okay so we eliminated temik as a groundwater pollutant, but instead of acres and acres of open space we find ourselves in Joni Mitchell's pave paradise put up a parking lot conundrum.

Greed remains a driving force along the South Fork. Political parties and their elected officials enjoy the increase in campaign ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 28, 15 4:32 PM
With all due respect to the idea of slowing growth on the East End, for the purposes of this supermarket proposal, the horses of slow-growth opportunity left the stable a long time ago. We haven’t just seen “slight" growth in residential buildout since 1970 — we’ve seen significant growth, and rapid buildout, and there are more residential projects approved and coming. The Town and Village could have been discussing how they might work together on dealing with the resulting ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 28, 15 5:12 PM
I figured that NTiger and I would draw the fire of Rickenbacker, the chief spokesman for the developer. Sort of a compliment, really.

I'll work backwards in your post, if I may. You attribute to us the notion that "we have all that we will ever need." Not so, and such an extreme distortion of our position is unfortunately typical of your below-the-line arguing tactics.

I don't say we have all we'll ever need. I understand we need more grocery shopping facilities now, and we'll ...more
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 29, 15 10:56 AM
1 member liked this comment
So many bad things are going on in the world, and you guys are worried about a King Kullen? Disgusting considering half the people writing here are political hacks.
By chief1 (2784), southampton on Mar 28, 15 10:48 PM
An alleged hack is better than a troll any day...
By Mr. Z (11670), North Sea on Mar 29, 15 10:32 AM
"We keep hearing from people … that we need this,” Ms. Throne-Holst said. “If you can show me a place that is better situated to put this, then please share it with me, because we have not been able to find it. If this is not the place then we need to find it.”

How about the people you keep hearing from that say we don't need this especially in this very dangerous traffic junction. Why must we have a Supervisor that sounds like a zoning lawyer for Robert Morrow instead ...more
By Obbservant (446), southampton on Mar 29, 15 8:14 AM
1 member liked this comment
"Delaying the change of zone application while we wait for the Town and Village to dance together is going to go nowhere , and cost EVERYONE a lot of time and money." This is quite a telling statement. Sounds like you know the fix is in and the COZ will go through, have your puppets already pledged their votes?" Cost EVERYONE a lot of time and money"? Now who could "everyone" be? Certainly not the residents, the only one with a financial interest here is Morrow.
"We also don't want , as a ...more
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 29, 15 8:35 AM
1 member liked this comment
How about that empty parcel across from Goldberg's bagels that is sometimes used for carnivals in the summer. I think it's Tuckahoe Rd. South. The Community needs another supermarket and sometimes reality has to trump appearances.
By Infoseeker (279), Hampton Bays on Mar 29, 15 9:48 AM
Well, bigfresh, you are inaccurate on all counts. I have lived in the community for many years, in Shinnecock Hills, the Village, North Sea, and Water Mill, over the past 30+ years, so I think I can speak to some of the issues at play with the experience of having witnessed many of the changes since I arrived here. Why is it that when someone disagrees with you they must be a “shill” for the other side? It is not possible that reasonable people can have a different opinion from yours? ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 10:53 AM
Let us start with the actual premise that a supermarket it wanted not needed. The lack of a supermarket has certainly not spurred residents to move or prevent new residences from being created.

We are talking here about the convenience of a 5 minute drive versus a 10-12 minute drive and measuring that against the potential diminished safety of our residents.

We certainly do not need a supermarket five minutes from everyone as we do need well maintained roads and bridges and ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 1:47 PM
"Obsservant, in many of her posts, keeps harping on the fact that the developer will “profit" from the center. And I would just like to point out, again, that profit is the very nature of commercial development, which is what the land is currently zoned for. Nobody builds commercial property with the intention of losing money. Name one commercial property along any of CR39 where the owner’s intention is to lose money."

Rickenbacker, you are sounding more like a Morrow paid hack ...more
By Obbservant (446), southampton on Mar 29, 15 5:00 PM
3 members liked this comment
It's not up to the Town and Village to find a location, even though Queen Anna commanded it! The developer has put the burden on himself by going for a COZ, if he has to wait , so be it. Still not convinced that you are not on Morrow's payroll, shilling for his project.
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 29, 15 12:51 PM
2 members liked this comment
Nope, you are right it isn't the responsibility of the Town or Village. So the Town only need address the application before them, not the one some may fantasize about that almost certainly doesn't exist, as it would just be a distraction. And here we are.

For what it's worth, as a town resident, I think it's way past time to have something like this built. I'm not paid for my opinion. I believe as strongly as maybe you disbelieve that in order to fully support the community that is already ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 1:57 PM
For what it's worth ,as a town resident, living close to this potential abomination I feel that it's not needed, nor will a grocery store of this magnitude be needed. We do not need to support developers of any stripe, we are saturated , we are full , we have enough. By the way, we don't live "OUT HERE", that's for the folks from away, we are just here.
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 29, 15 5:41 PM
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"Call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye."

~ "The Last Resort", The Eagles (1976)
By Mr. Z (11670), North Sea on Mar 31, 15 11:11 PM
Ms.Throne Holst,

Stop conflating need with want, convenience with progress, political donors with constituents, spot zoning with the right to build, and shopping malls with neighborhood grocery stores. You and the board did not define the need or seek out an appropriate location for a new mega-store, so why are you asking residents to identify an alternative?

The fact that you continue to place the onus on the voters and not the developer says much about how you view your ...more
By dagdavid (646), southampton on Mar 29, 15 4:06 PM
dagdavid, music to my ears! You have hit the nail on the head. I would venture to guess that Fleming, and perhaps one other may not support this. It's an election year for Supervisor. Let's all remember what she stands for at the voting booth.
By Earthgirl (52), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 6:48 PM
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NTiger - you claim that Southampton has lost its way in the last 40 (!!) years. Haven't you had quite a bit of say in who the movers and shakers are in the last 40 years?

You also bemoan "spot-zoning" and think that every property out there should be developed according to it's underlying zoning.

Well, that theory goes out the door when you combine it with your statement that the Town has lost its way for the last 40 years. So the Town Boards who in your mind have been inept ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 7:08 PM
Do you understand the difference in traffic on Montauk Hwy and County Road 39? Do you understand the concept of safety versus convenience.

Do you understand that the grocery store in Bridgehampton was annexed to the old Caldor Shopping Center which was approved back before we had to worry about Temik.

And no I haven't had much say in who the movers and shakers are since the late '80's apart from as an Election Lawyer and advisor on matters concerning the Election Law. My last ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 29, 15 9:48 PM
You can't say that CR 39 is different than MTK Hwy in HB and BH. Mtk Hwy in Southampton is residential with a 25 MPH speed limit. Mtk Hwy on BH and HB is commercially developed with speed limits similar to those of CR39 and funnel the majority of traffic through them. They are for all intents and purposes the same road - local highway.

I'm glad you understand and agree that grocery stores are not as of right - we can discuss the merits of the application, but it seems like you just want ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 11:43 AM
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Actually I can and do say that Montauk Hwy and Cty Rd 39 are clearly not the same.

Montauk Highway is a one lane in each direction road. It cuts through downtown Hampton Bays. King Kullen in the midst of the hamlet and Stop and Shop at the gateway to the down town area. Same with King Kullen in Bridgehampton which as pointed out in earlier comment piggy backed on the old Caldor shopping center.

Montauk Highway has no passing lanes its solid twin yellow lines through out its ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 7:01 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 7:01 PM
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I don't know why the above comment appeared twice. I guess the computer program must agree with it.

By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 7:05 PM
Nature, thanks for defending the argument that so many have made: spot zoning creates a precedent used by all who follow to build as they please. Based on your argument, why not just eliminate zoning altogether?
By witch hazel (224), tatooine on Mar 29, 15 7:32 PM
Nature never made that statement defending the specious precedent argument. The approval of this change of zone does not set a precedent for any future development. Any future change of zone request would be based on the merits of that particular application, with all the study and public input that comes along with it, for or against. This isn't spot zoning the way you want to characterize it. This application isn't anti-zoning, either. The 1970 Comprehensive Plan addresses the eventuality of an ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 12:11 PM
Rickenbacker, the 1970 Comprehensive Plan never recommended nor even implied the future need of a 40,000 sq ft business establishment. It was very firm and unequivocal in recommending against anything over 15,000 sq ft "Highway businesses".

To suggest that the C Plan was open to businesses 400% of their recommended maximum is a puerile and pathetic attempt at sophistry, when it is very clear that the Plan explicitly set, not suggested 15,000 sq ft as the absolute maximum for CR 39, even ...more
By Obbservant (446), southampton on Mar 30, 15 7:00 PM
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That may be so with true “highway business”, but this application is about changing the current zone to “shopping center business”. Whether the Plan calls for 15,000 sq ft. per lot is irrelevant, since the four lots that make up this proposal have a total as-of-right development envelope of 60,000 sq ft. The current plan offers to build 58,500 sq ft, so it is below the as-of-right maximum. The numbers, at least, don’t lie. The consolidation of the mass, 100 ft off the ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 8:21 PM
Obbservant - are you seriously trying to argue that a Comp plan from 45 (FORTY-FIVE!!!) Years ago is somehow relevant AND adequate? Heck, one from 10 years ago probably would be showing its age...

Things change, and no one wants to understand that, but we all want to reap the benefits of the change. We all want to be able to go to grocery stores and have options (remember when Hampton Bays had a Key Foods and that was all?) just "not in our backyard".

A lot of people from Tuckahoe ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 8:58 PM
Then you admit that Cty Rd 39 and Montauk Hwy are not the same.

Spot zoning by definition is a tool of development - pro developer development.

I also seem to recall at least east of the canal reductions from 5 acre lots.

And despite being an interesting topic of discussion it has no impact on the safety issue of placing a supermarket on this location.

Once you admit that the road is dangerous "that can't be diisputed" as you admit your conclusion that more ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 10:03 PM
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(to re-iterate) Cty Rd. 39 is the *only* highway option through that part of town - much like mtk hwy is through Bridgehampton.

Spot-zoning has many different faces - and when the underlying zoning stems from a plan drawn up over 45 years ago, it is an appropriate tool to be used. Also, when someone acquires multiple properties with multiple zoning designations, "spot-zoning" is needed in order to allow for functional development.

Your grasping at poor traffic control is getting ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 31, 15 9:19 AM
As to your final point the answer is a resounding no it would not be SAFER for me, as I know travel on the rather safe if slower Montauk Highway and not the statistically less safe greater fatality road known as Cty Rd 39. Nor do I wish to drive through the Village residential streets where children might be playing.

To assert that more traffic on Cty Rd 39 will somehow make it safer to drive only serves to diminish the veracity of your other arguments.

We agree that as it currently ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 31, 15 10:45 AM
As to your final point the answer is a resounding no it would not be SAFER for me, as I know travel on the rather safe if slower Montauk Highway and not the statistically less safe greater fatality road known as Cty Rd 39. Nor do I wish to drive through the Village residential streets where children might be playing.

To assert that more traffic on Cty Rd 39 will somehow make it safer to drive only serves to diminish the veracity of your other arguments.

We agree that as it currently ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 31, 15 10:45 AM
Never asserted it would make it safer - but one must acknowledge the possibility. If traffic is forced to move slower due to congestion, then high-speed accidents (the most deadly) would have to be reduced.

I'm not equating KK to Starbucks - but one extra car on the road could result in an accident, and you are adamantly against that possibility (btw, have you considered moving to Sweden where they have the admirable goal of 0 traffic deaths?).

You ponder that time will tell ...more
Mar 31, 15 11:08 AM appended by Nature
Witchy - that's not what I stated as fact or that it was a "good thing" or a reason for the COZ to be approved. What I stated was that essentially if the traffic is as bad as everyone makes it out to be - then it has the potential to reduce *fatal* accidents because cars are travelling at a slower speed. Tiger is completely hungup on the idea that more traffic automatically = more deaths and injuries. It's a counterpoint. Also, I've never once stated that I think this COZ should be approved. I'm simply defending Mr. Morrow's right to seek the COZ and for the Board to consider it.
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Mar 31, 15 11:08 AM
Nature has just perfectly illustrated the complete lack of critical thinking that dominates pro meg-mall conversations. "If traffic is forced to move slower due to congestion, then high-speed accidents (the most deadly) would have to be reduced. "

Just think about this for a moment: His argument is if we triple the traffic things will be so jammed up that it will reduce accidents! Wow, I bet Mr. Morrow wishes he'd thought of that one himself, but I'm sure he'll use it. He can add it ...more
By witch hazel (224), tatooine on Mar 31, 15 2:33 PM
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Its been fun Nature. Looking forward to point counter point on the next issue we find ourselves pretending to be on opposite sides of.

No comment I have seen here has suggested that Mr. Morrow doesn't have a right to request this approval. Not quite sure why you feel it necessary to clutter the discussion with matters of no particular relevance.

And personal experience driving for lo these many years is the fact that traffic is moving slowly doesn't prevent the hot rod lincoln ...more
By NTiger (543), Southampton on Mar 31, 15 2:50 PM
Nice spin, why not a grocery store of smaller size without all the other buildings?
By bigfresh (4593), north sea on Mar 30, 15 4:08 PM
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If we "need" a grocery store, better to be a Wild by Nature or a Trader Joe's.

You don't need a King Kullen every seven miles...
By Mr. Z (11670), North Sea on Mar 30, 15 4:36 PM
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This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By chief1 (2784), southampton on Mar 30, 15 7:57 PM
no you didn't just say "then don't go there"
if you are kidding than that is very funny.
By dave h (193), calverton on Mar 30, 15 11:01 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By Mr. Z (11670), North Sea on Mar 30, 15 11:29 PM
Shakespeare's famous line, "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks" describes perfectly Anna's repeated claims of having an open mind. She appears to be unconcerned about traffic and safety issues raised by numerous village officials and the public, but pleased to hear any support from the steady stream of obvious friends, associates, and employees of the several developers who are behind the shopping center project. Good thing there is an election coming up this fall. Brad, Christine and Stan ...more
By moonpie (43), Southampton on Mar 30, 15 7:50 PM
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This is dangerous. Why do politicians always acquiesce to what developers want instead of what is good for the safety of their community?

Not to mention the difference between need and convenience.

And remember when the so-called environmental impact study said that traffic would not be affected by a shopping center in Water Mill? How many people actually shop there as opposed to how many are stuck in traffic on 27 because of it? Why do developers always get their way over the ...more
By btdt (449), water mill on Mar 30, 15 8:28 PM
To answer your query...


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
By Mr. Z (11670), North Sea on Mar 31, 15 11:29 PM
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NTiger and others who say it comes down to need vs. convenience in the end are exactly right. We don't need a store where this one is proposed, and we don't need a store this big. Much less do we need the bank (yet another bank?) and whatever else is projected to go along with it.

Need vs. convenience: This community consciously gave up a degree of driving convenience some years ago when it chose to end Sunrise Highway where it ends now. The idea was to control growth in the area, and ...more
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Mar 31, 15 9:57 AM
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"Some rich men came and raped the land
Nobody caught 'em.
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes,
And Jesus people bought 'em."

~ The Eagles, "The Last Resort" (Hotel California, 1976)
By Mr. Z (11670), North Sea on Mar 31, 15 11:16 PM
Why not just put a traffic circle at Sandy Hollow and North Bishop, close off the CR 39 entrance and make North Bishop the main entrance. Also help out the village with redoing the back streets that are directly affected by this project with proper curbs, wider streets, sidewalks, lights, etc.

A traffic circle will provide many benefits by removing the dangers of travelling on CR 39. Already traffic travels way too fast on that road. Anyone who has sat waiting at the light at the Sandy ...more
By Toma Noku (616), uptown on Apr 1, 15 11:07 AM
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You've got that right. That area is already scary to navigate. Westbound traffic hurtles by, veering perilously close to eastbound vehicles on that curve. It's the wrong place for a busy shopping center.
By moonpie (43), Southampton on Apr 1, 15 12:45 PM
so now our tax dollars and all our town emploeyees and all our police and all our public funds and resources have to be focused on a traffic circle foe the sake of this private developer.
..
see there it is in print - private development costs us our tax dollars !!
..
previous articles on 27east citing several traffic signs alone cost $300K .. a full blown complete reorganization of the traffic situation just for the sake of a new bank and a tiny grocery store !!!
..
hey ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Apr 1, 15 1:51 PM
So don't navigate it Moonpie. Help reduce traffic flow by staying off the road. Those of us competent enough to "navigate" it surely would appreciate it.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Apr 1, 15 2:06 PM
David - The COZ could be conditioned upon the developer paying for a portion of improvements. The comments on this article all attest to major safety and traffic problems with that road - and circles are known to be traffic calming and effective. It's a possibility. Doing nothing won't make the road safer.
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Apr 1, 15 2:45 PM
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Food for thought. The leading consumer magazine in the nation--rhymes with shorts--just did a survey about the nations supermarkets. Dead last on the list at 68 was...Waldbaums.( Unfortunately, King Kullen was not listed probably due to its regional status). Considering that Waldbaums has been recently under Chapter 11 and is ranked so poorly it seems that there is a NEED to seriiously consider it eventual demise and ability to serve the local area. Also, did anyone notice that the Center Moriches ...more
By Toma Noku (616), uptown on Apr 4, 15 7:15 PM
Note:This is in the latest issue of the magazine.
By Toma Noku (616), uptown on Apr 4, 15 7:23 PM
Hey folks, check out the editorial in this week's Press. Official editorial opinion is catching up with us. Keep up the momentum and we'll win this thing yet.
By Turkey Bridge (1966), Quiogue on Apr 9, 15 12:25 PM
power tools, home improvements, building supplies, Eastern Long Island