
Despite a favorable report from its own staff, the Suffolk County Planning Commission last week voted against a proposed zone change to allow the development of Tuckahoe Center, a supermarket and retail complex on County Road 39.
While the Planning Commission’s 8-5 vote last Wednesday, December 2, does not kill the shopping center proposal, it does mean that a supermajority of the Southampton Town Board—four out of five board members—would be required to approve the zone change application. Before the commission vote, three votes could have allowed the 40,000-square-foot supermarket on property near the intersection with Magee Street.
The project was first brought to the Town Board in 2010 by developer Robert Morrow and his partners, Lance Nil, Lyle Pike and Mark Zucchero. The current application, which has been scaled back considerably since the initial presentation, calls for the construction of a 40,000-square-foot grocery store, 15,000 square feet of small retail stores, a 3,500-square-foot bank, and more than 200 parking spaces.
For the developers to accomplish the project, the Town Board would have to approve changing the zoning of 7.2 acres of land along the south side of County Road 39 from highway business to shopping center business. With approval of the county’s Planning Commission, a simple majority would have been all that was required for the Town Board to allow the change of zone.
In addition to the Suffolk County planning staff, who supported the zone change in a report to the Planning Commission, the chairman of the county’s Department of Public Works, Gilbert Anderson, addressed the Planning Commission in person prior to its vote last Wednesday, arguing in favor. He said his own staff had studied the project’s potential traffic impact—a key issue for opponents of the project, and for Town Board members considering the change of zone—and concluded that traffic on busy County Road 39 would not be significantly increased as a result of the proposed development.
But a final plea, opposing the project, seemed to have swayed the Planning Commission to outright reject the proposal. It came from Planning Commission member Barbara Roberts, who represents Southampton Town on the committee.
“In my opinion, the applicant has not demonstrated the community benefit and need for a 40,000-square-foot grocery store and 12 retail stores at this highly congested and already dangerous stretch of our main artery in and out of the South Fork,” she said in a lengthy prepared statement to her colleagues. “As this is the main and most important artery to the entire South Fork and southern route to Shelter Island, this decision has major regional significance … In my years of service on this commission representing the Town of Southampton, this unquestionably is the most important decision we have had to make for a regionally significant impact for the East End of Long Island.”
Ms. Roberts reminded fellow commission members that the current highway business zoning for the site allows only low-traffic businesses and buildings no larger than 15,000 square feet. “This zoning change request goes against 40 years of successful and consistent zoning on [County Road 39],” she said, adding later, “There are no shortage of other development options for this site.”
Citing her expertise on business and economic development as a reason for her appointment to the commission, Ms. Roberts targeted the applicant’s market analysis report, suggesting that it skewed the parameters of the study to demonstrate a need for a new supermarket. “This report was written by consultants who do not know our community,” she added.
“The focus on our decision should not be the 4,200 households near Tuckahoe requesting a new grocery store slightly nearer to their homes. We have a bigger responsibility to ensure that the 55,000 drivers who come through this corridor each day can move as safely and quickly as possible,” she said.
In her remarks, Ms. Roberts acknowledged that “it is unusual for a majority vote to occur that overrides the staff’s recommendation.” A majority of eight votes is required for a final decision by the commission; if a vote falls short of that number, even if it’s a majority decision, the matter would be referred back to the town or village “for local determination,” she noted.
The board went on to provide the necessary eight votes to outright reject its planning staff’s recommendation, and the change of zone proposal.
The final vote among commission members was cast by Chairman Dave Calone—who resigned the day after the vote, sources have confirmed. Mr. Calone did not return calls seeking comment this week.
Mr. Calone is a candidate for the Democratic nomination to seek the 1st District seat in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2016—and he is battling with Southampton Town Supervisor Anna Throne-Holst for that nomination.
On Tuesday, Ms. Throne-Holst, who has expressed support for the project in the past, pointed out that it is highly unusual for the Planning Commission to vote against a project that has been supported by the county DPW staff.
This week, after the vote, one of the property’s owners, Mr. Morrow, said he was “more than surprised” by the outcome, adding that he was “dumbfounded” that the Planning Commission would go against the planning staff’s recommendation.
“We thought that the members of the commission would look favorably on the project and approve it,” Mr. Morrow said. “I don’t know what’s going to happen. We’ve got to figure out what to do.”
“We don’t think the decision is consistent with what was presented,” John Wagner, attorney for the applicants, said this week. “The planning staff made a presentation to the commission that was basically favorable, and there was testimony before the commission that was also favorable from county officials. So, given all of the evidence, the commission should have been in support.”
He declined to say if the applicants would consider legal action against the county and the town if the measure ultimately fails to pass in Southampton.
With the rejection by the Planning Commission, general municipal law will require a majority plus one vote, meaning four of five members of the board would need to agree for the project to move forward, according to Southampton Town Planning and Development Administrator Kyle Collins.
Currently, however, the Southampton Town Board is in a state of flux. Two of the sitting board members—Ms. Throne-Holst and Councilwoman Bridget Fleming—are leaving the board at the end of the month, to be replaced by Supervisor-elect Jay Schneiderman and Councilman-elect John Bouvier, respectively.
Meanwhile, a vacant board seat will be filled in a special election on January 26, because Councilman Brad Bender was forced to resign last month after being charged with distributing prescription painkillers.
Ms. Throne-Holst said that until Mr. Bender’s seat is filled, the four-member board will not vote on any substantial projects, like the Tuckahoe Center proposal. One member who won reelection in November, Councilwoman Christine Scalera, has said she will not support the Tuckahoe Center change of zone because of concerns about the traffic impact.
For now, opponents of the project are reveling in the county’s opposition to the project, saying they hope the Town Board also will vote against the shopping center.
“Thanks to everyone who lent their time, support energy and effort to this campaign to protect what little traffic capacity we still have and further protect the value of comprehensive planning across the region,” Robert DeLuca, president of the Group for the East End, said via email on the night of the vote.
They could put 2 chain restaurants there. Olive Garden perhaps. A grocery may have been the lesser of the evils.
If the developers don't get a super majority vote in town hall, when we actually have a town board again, they will then offer the property as a "build to suit". Under highway business, they can build pretty much anything.
This vote by the County is horrible for Southampton, not because of a grocery store, but because the developers will ...more most likely put anything they can make money with on that property, at the gate of our beautiful village...
Well played, NIMBY crew, well played. "Free Crab Tomorrow"
on the road near the Magee Street intersection. That alone should put the nix on a zone change. And by the way, zone changes fail to protect property owners who have invested in an area where the parameters for building and traffic have been defined.
The recent Stop & Shop renovation did not change any of the dynamics of this point - it only partially cleaned up that single undersized location's act. The need for these services still exists, and will continue to demand a solution for many years to come. Remember, in order to have a shopping area like this, you need a minimum of 5 acres. It has been stated many times that other than this particular site, there are no other commercial parcels like this one (save the Elks property nearly across the street and the PSEG property on David White's Ln).
The traffic studies all pointed to a nearly net zero impact on overall existing traffic, and many thousands of miles would be less traveled by many local shoppers because of the development. The county's own planners agreed that they could even mitigate issues in the immediate area around Magee and CR39 so that there would not be any adverse impact.
Yes, Barbara Roberts should be ashamed, as she spent a good deal of time letting the commission and attendees know how smart she was as an East End representative, and then proceeded to cherry-pick her facts, agreeing with traffic study elements when it suited her narrative, and dismissing those same traffic studies when it didn't. She came with an agenda, one most closely resembling the hysterics espoused by Havemeyer and McGann. Most ridiculous was her claim, ala McGann, that a substantial amount of people in the trade area for this development are already buying their groceries online! I'm a big user of the internet, and even I don't buy that crapola.
Roberts' opinion also went against both the Suffolk County Commissioner of Public Works' positive recommendation AND the county planning commission's own professional staff's positive recommendation for approval. Hey, that's what they do for a living, but ok, just dismiss them out of hand because you must be so much smarter. It was such a clear political calculation rather than a substantive debate on the actual finalized plan and data, that it left many gobsmacked in disbelief.
But a vote is a vote, 8-5 for disapproval, and that's just the way it is. We have to make sure we elect representatives who will be better informed on issues. This was not the case on this particular issue, in my opinion.
You don't seem to "get it". A great many of us who have called this our home for decades are sick and damn tired of the overdevelopment.
Build as of right, or don't build at all.
the hard facts of traffic cannot be ignored. the amount of cars needed to support a mega mall are too large ...more to be accommodated at this location. the board keeps approving high density applications while ignoring the fragile and limited infrastructure. CR39 and Magee St intersection is the location of the highest number of accidents in that area.high volumes of cars cannot safely exit and enter this location. period. the suffolk county commission clearly saw that. rep barbara roberts actually took the time to read all relevant documents and genuinely impressed me with her depth of understanding. don't shoot the messenger just cause you don't like the message
In your universe, a "mega" mall is a little grocery-anchored shopping center. I can only think you must be wide-mouth dumbfounded then when you come across entities like the Smithtown Mall, the Roosevelt Field Mall, or the Walt Whitman Mall, which, by the way, only one of them is truly "mega", but are all more than 20x the size of this project. I shudder to think how you survive the shock and awe of retail commerce if this one modest project was so over the top for you. It must positively give you the vapors! There is nothing "mega" or "mall"-like about it.
All you are saying is that regardless of the intensity of growth in the Tuckahoe area, there should be absolutely no support for it regarding basic shopping needs.
As an alternative, you probably think the village center is the only right place to service the increasing needs of outer village residents. Are you nodding yes? Then how do you explain statements made in this week's paper by village residents now complaining that the proposed business-district sewer project, which is designed specifically to enable village business to handle the increased traffic and commerce, is going to, dare we mention it, bring more development and business?! You can't have it both ways.
The fact is, cries of mega-malls and traffic armageddon are soley designed to divert attention away from what the "mall"-calling class of whiners is really all about - No more development, now, or in the future, no matter what. It's the modus operandi of the Group for the East End, the aberration of tone in some of the local CACs, and people who, no matter what "fact" is presented, want to bury their heads in the sand and just say "No". What kind of universe...excuse me...what sort of community, do you believe you still live in?
Your accident comment is also incorrect. The hottest spot for deadly accidents on CR 39 is west of the college, not east or even at the CR39/Magee St intersection. That was just thrown in there by you to see if it stuck. It didn't. But maybe, in your universe, gravity is just different.
quick ideas:
1-mega mall, is "mini mega mall" better? even you agree how much bigger is it that anything nearby? oh a lot bigger, ok then mega mall comparatively is accurate enough in some respect ..
unless you compare 'mega' to what, riverhead or king of Prussia
2-how many of these Tuckahoe density projects and outer village developments have you been a part of?
3- is worst accident location is off by 1/2 mile ...more right.. wow bfd, what is mageee street and the pc Richard turn #2 or 3 & 4 if you are breaking into 100 ft increments? regardless the stretch from 7-11 to lobster Inn is legitimately death defying..
4- if traffic soon comes to a 24/7 bumper to bumper standstill then accident should come down
..
to be fair, you are as biased 'pro density' as I am against.
This fork of Long Island is a confined space. Stop packing it like a sardine can.
2- I do not and never have had a stake in this or any other development. I have just lived here locally for many years and understand that things do need to change, not because I want any more "surburbanization" (I don't) or a desire for UTI-type density (don't want that either), but for the REALITY of the fact that there are hundreds more families that live outside the village who would be better served having a new grocery store closer to their homes. The traffic-nazi's complain about the "devastating" traffic "destroying" their way of life, but ignore the fact that the very same traffic inhibits and slows down life for regular working people trying to get basic needs. The village option is not suitable long term, as the facility was built in the 1970's, well before the population growth exploded out east. And that grocery store was built when there were already 4 other competitors within walking distance of it (IGA(Bohacks)/Gristede's/Herbert's/McClaren's Market). It also cannot reasonably expand. On top of that, the village already has parking issues, and traffic gridlock of its own at times.
3- Concerning accidents, your scale is off. It's 1.5 miles to Stony Brook U and 3 miles to Lobster Inn, quite a distance and different type of road there as opposed to where this project is sited. Yes, there was 1 horrible fatal accident near PC Richard and this is close by, but unfortunately there are fatal accidents all over the South Fork, none of which should have happened, but those conditions are not going to be worsened by this development. In fact, since the county is getting a 75-ft easement on the Tuckahoe Center property, specifically for road improvements, I'll make you a bet that it will end up being one of the safest parts of CR39.
4 - I am not pro-density. I am however cognizant of the incredibly robust new construction going on in and around the local area. It's not just condos. Take a drive on the back roads, and you will easily count hundreds of new homes built or under construction, all outside of the village. That's just our whole community's present reality. And that has created a situation where more services, like a basic grocery-anchored shopping center are entirely appropriate.
please accept my sincere respect for clearly stating you are not involved.
DH
The "need" is imaginary, and poppycock.
Because of the density created by developers like this one. It's self defeating in the end, and will turn this place into more of a "bastard suburbia" than it is. The funniest thing is the people who come to the "country", but want "white glove". Pathetic. It's the COUNTRY for a [expletive deleted] reason.
Do you remember that anti-drug cocaine commercial back in the eighties, where the guy was walking in circles in a small white ...more room? It's still out there on YouTube.
"I do coke. So I can work longer. So i can earn more. So I can do more coke."
Reminds me of that...
Those are not my words. They are a quotation from a 30 year old commercial. They are set in quotes. Quoting them as mine isn't a good idea. In fact, it shows just how bright you are...
Enough traffic on County road 39 now.
Good thing I'm not adding to the traffic...
1. according to VHB for the developer, intersections at cr39 and magee st and cr39 and cr52 are the locations of the highest accident rates along this stretch of cr39 (page 139, Table 6, EIS).
2. supermarkets truly are the heart of a village; they bring in shoppers who will then go to shops nearby to spend their money. Robert Gibbs is a retail consultant who travels the country telling towns and small cities how to survive and prosper. he was hired by southampton village ...more earlier this year. i asked him, an expert in the field, what the impact of the tuckahoe mega mall would be on the businesses of SH village. He told me it would be a death knell. village centers are where supermarkets belong.
there is simply no way to move the amount of traffic currently attempting to travel along cr39 or north on magee st. suffolk county's own traffic engineer, dan densch, denied the request to change the light signal at this intersection because it would impede the flow of traffic on cr39. The Commissioner of DPW couldn't offer one single traffic mitigation when asked at the Dec 2 meeting. it simply can't be done.
whether or not another supermarket is needed is a conversation that can be had, but this location is simply wrong. it should be developed as of right, with low traffic generating uses.
and please, Rickenbacker, how about having an adult conversation and leave out the insults and name calling? This proposed development I choose to call a mega mall IS appropriate . for your edification, Webster defines Mega as "very large". i think that is entirely accurate.
But help me understand what you are saying - You are contending that the heart of a village center is its supermarket, even though the dynamics in this particular case would show that more people live outside of that village than within it, that there are now fewer basic supermarkets in the village than there were just 15 years ago, that somehow, in your vision for the future, with all that outer growth, with more to come, there is absolutely no possibility of an additional new grocery store being built outside the village, ever, to handle the increased flow.
I can only respond that what you are saying is just not reality-based. The commissioner of DPW, part of whose job is planning, ie, long term vision, stated categorically that traffic mitigation on Magee St COULD be done, based on discussions with his staff. Who are you to simply dismiss it out of hand as if he didn't know what he was talking about? He wasn't asked to come in to testify on his mitigation plan, he came to the meeting on his own to make comments of support of the overall project and stated he was comfortable with what the county could do. Planners plan, and looking into the future with the data in hand, the conclusion for another supermarket, in his mind, the county planning staff's mind, and lots of other people's minds, is justifiable.
I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do, I understand where you are coming from, but the time has come for better solutions than just "no development, no way, no how."
The traffic issue as I've said, is a canard that attempts to obscure that real agenda.
With regard to accidents, the data you quote from the DEIS only compared the roads immediately bordering the proposed development (see also the FEIS, Table 3, page 16). It did not report accident data from west of Magee St or east of PC Richards, which, if included, would dwarf the data in the EIS as it relates to both the amount and severity of accidents along the whole of CR39, which was my point in my earlier comment.
Until last week, Mr. Calone served as chairman of the Planning Commission, resigning the day after his deciding vote against the shopping center, sources have confirmed"
So the vote was 8-5, but somehow Calone cast the deciding vote?
Exactly how many votes does (did) the Chairman get to cast?
Is this some new new math?
Quantum County Planning Commission mathematics?
8 to 5 seems to indicate ...more a three vote margin. If Calone was the last to vote, did the vote stand at 7 to 5? That would probably under normal rules of mathematics render however Mr. Calone voted as pretty much moot.
Of course, through out the course of the lame duck's tenure in town office facts were not always facts, so perhaps now mathematics is no longer math.
Please Mr. Editor explain to us mathematically deprived left handers how Chairman Calone cast the deciding vote.
Thank you so much.
Hey for all I know he had 4 votes, but it is certainly unclear from this article.
Again thanks.
Ms. ...more Roberts proposition that IGA & Gristedes are gone because of lack of need is preposterous. Grocery stores rent for $15 a square foot. Pharmacies pay $40. And she claims to be a great business person. Any landlord would make that change. And gladly build to suit.
As of right, the developers can put in 3 14,500 sf buildings. They could put a Hooters in. TGIF AND and Joe's Crab Shack (Or maybe an Olive Garden to compete with our Italian eateries? These are legal highway business uses. 3 curb cuts. 3 businesses that compete with the village businesses. The developers have been carrying the mortgage on this property for 9 years. They need to make their money back. If I were them, thankfully I'm not, I would put up anything that paid at this point. And not care what it did for the gateway to Southampton.
The NIMBY crew that lead the "Mega Mall " campaign may have won the battle. I think they may not be happy with the outcome of the war...
They also own the IGHL How about a drug rehab there? Falls within code. A Mini storage ...more is pretty high rent for investment. Uncle Bob's is always sold out... Car dealership? Check, totally do-able.
The arguments posted are laughable. "Too much traffic"- I'm still driving on that highway to get my groceries, just farther. "Too much noise"-Its zoned as highway business, its gonna be noisy. "Too much dust from construction"
If all of the NIMBY folks got together with the Dems (TB, are you listening?) and offered the developers CPF funds to purchase the property, at fair market value, maybe you could leave the property in the "8 mile" state it is now. Or turn it into a park with a playground for all of the kids that live in the area- which is going to increase when the Corrigans develop their property, not to mention the kids from "Bisshops Pond" and that new condo ...more development across from the Blue Collar bar.
Ms. Roberts states that she likes to drink more than eat. How about a bar? Clearly she feels that alcohol is better than food, 'The report claims that our entire population is spending less per person on
food in a grocery stores than is the expected amount spent by people at our income level. It
also shows that we spend substantially more on wine and alcohol and in specialty food stores
which might be a clue that we are not a typical community." I am not "At her income level". She represents the "1%". I buy my beer in a grocery store.
Barbara Roberts in her finest moment said, "“This zoning change request goes against 40 years of successful and consistent zoning on [County Road 39],” and all the unbiased, comprehensive ...more planning studies since then.
All these PDDs, the Hills, Tuckahoe Center, et al will be Anna Throne Holst's waterloo and good riddance indeed. Have a great broker's career. You've certainly made many, many developers very happy in your Town Hall career, Bye.
Oh, she only had a “moment" to you because she is in the same angry, leaky, boat of “No" as you. No development ever, that is. Oh, unless maybe a developer who happens to have gotten his project by you ...more happens to agree to give you an addition on your house. But that never happened, did it?
To many others, Roberts is just another example of the "just say no" crowd, even when facts are presented in front of them and experts on a particular issue come up with recommendations that are opposite from your world view. It’s not saving the community, it is just just making life more difficult for many others.
Tuckahoe Center is a zoning change. There isn't a zone in Southampton that allows Grocery stores...
If that was Barbara Roberts "Finest Hour" I would hate to see her worst. "For over 300 years, residents on the South Fork have
gone to our villages and farm stands, local butchers and seafood markets to shop for food. Our
villages are our shopping centers." I go to a Hamlet for my groceries. Hampton Bays. Travelling the very road that the ...more opponents of this project say we need to reduce traffic on.
Get ready for whatever the developers put on this property.
I remember going to the Sears catalog store in Bridgehampton to order school clothes as a child. Many of us out here are of a different type. We stock our pantries. We have deep freezes. We own generators. Bottom line, we prepare. If you don't want that lifestyle, don't impose your "convenience" on people who actually know how ...more to be prepared.
We have the busiest 7-11 in the world. SUNOCO is renovating their Southampton service station-one of the last "Service Stations" in Southampton-to be a mega convenience mart trying to cash in on 7-11's success. Yes, right on the very corner that the grocery store is being denied, a mega convenience store-called "A Plus Mart"- is being built. How did Town Hall allow this? No need for permission other than a building permit. The Architecture of this mega convenience store doesn't ...more fit our community.
The rural way of life is long gone.
By facts you obviously mean the those conclusions from Bob Morrow's hired "experts" paid to propound his schemes. Morrow bought some parcels cheap in an assemblage and bought rights to others, because their authorized use was for decades limited to 15,000 ...more sq ft highway business from at least the 60s when traffic was nowhere near as overwhelming and dangerous on 39 as it is today.
Today with the density, traffic and accidents having increased exponentially since then, simple logic and common horse sense which people like you don't seem to have, that those limitations to big footprint and high traffic establishments like Morrow's 40,000 sq ft monstrosity, almost 3 times the allowable size by zoning law, are even more needed today.
And it is 100% certain that during those heavy traffic days, delivery trucks, landscaping trucks, Hampton Jitneys and regular passenger vehicles will be diverted to previously quiet and serene Southampton village and Tuckahoe streets to the extend the misery particularly to parents and children on those streets.
Rickenbacker, from your rabid pro-developer (any development), you are obviously a developer, a shill for them, or otherwise make your living from services to large development projects because you never met one that you didn't like, regardless of consequences for most people.
You don't fool people, most of all your fellow shills who know just exactly what's going on. You laughably couch your "independent" views all for the supposed benefits of the people but your intent is transparent and obvious.
..is it me because I find price and selection fantastic in riverhead and I have never minded the drive. the local landscape is so wonderful that I never mind it .. and doing it on my own schedule is never a traffic jam (dud hwo would go on Saturday!)