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Sep 3, 2014 9:11 AMPublication: The Southampton Press

Southampton Village Board Concerned About Plan For King Kullen In Tuckahoe

Sep 3, 2014 10:35 AM

Southampton Village officials are closely monitoring a proposal for a new King Kullen supermarket in Tuckahoe near the village border, an application slated to be discussed once again by Southampton Town officials in the coming weeks.

The applicants have asked the Southampton Town Board for a change of zone to allow the creation of a shopping center, which would include the King Kullen, on 7.25 acres of land along County Road 39 near the intersection with Magee Street.

At a meeting last week, several Village Board members expressed concern about the impact such a large store would have on the village, saying that traffic on side streets has increased in recent years. They also said the village has not ruled out taking Southampton Town to court if it approves the plan.

“I think a store like this is going to have a negative impact on the village business district and shopping area,” Mayor Mark Epley said this week. “I think this is going to have an extremely negative impact on the back road traffic, where there is already substantial congestion. I think this store will definitely compound the issue.”

The petition in question, by developer Robert Morrow and partners Lyle Pike and Lance Nil, asks that the zoning on four parcels be changed from a mix of highway business and R-20, or half-acre residential, to shopping center business. If approved by the Town Board, the change would allow for a 40,000-square-foot supermarket, the maximum size allowed in a shopping center business zone, plus an accompanying 15,000 square feet of retail shops and a 3,500-square-foot stand-alone bank building.

A hotel and restaurant on one of the parcels would be razed to make way for the project, as would an abandoned surf shop. The rest of the property is vacant.

Mr. Epley noted that there are other large pieces of land available in that area, and that granting a change of zone would set a precedent for the town to approve more strip malls. The approval also could draw business away from the village, the mayor said. With such a large supermarket in the area, residents and visitors would be able to avoid traveling through the village for much of their shopping, keeping them away from local business owners and markets.

The Town Board is scheduled to discuss the PDD proposal in the next few weeks—but in preliminary discussions with board members, Mr. Epley said, they indicated that they are in favor of the change.

A recently completed study of the County Road 39 corridor discusses the proposal, in relation to the goals of the Comprehensive Plan, but essentially offers no hard conclusion, saying only that the Town Board must carefully weigh both positives and negatives before deciding on the change of zone.

Last week, Village Trustee Nancy McGann expressed her opposition to the project, saying that it is not fair to village businesses. She added that a lawsuit should be seriously considered if the project moves forward.

“I am very upset,” she said. “If it goes through, I want to sue the town, because this is wrong. It is wrong for our community and every single one of our side streets. They have no business allowing this, since our rules and regulations do not allow for it.”

This week, Mr. Epley said village officials will have to wait and see what the town decides, but he noted that a lawsuit is not out of the question. According to the mayor, there have been similar cases in the courts arguing that one municipality’s decision can hurt a neighboring municipality, which would set precedent for a lawsuit by Southampton Village.

“You know and I know that people who are traveling to Southampton will go there, Water Mill people will go there, and then they will mosey on through our side streets to cut farther east, causing more traffic,” Ms. McGann said. “It will have an adverse effect on our community, and it is wrong.”

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Poor SH Village the businesses won't be able to rip off it's customers anymore
By left eq (28), Southampton on Sep 3, 14 10:33 AM
3 members liked this comment
Seems like a case of talking out of both sides of one's mouth.Is this bad for the town? If not, whether or not it is bad for the village should be of little consequence.
By dnice (2345), Hampton Bays on Sep 3, 14 10:45 AM
2 members liked this comment
If the Village had a decent supermarket, there wouldn't be a need for another. As it is, Waldbaum's is crowded, understocked, and unpleasant. Citarella is lovely, but terribly expensive ($9/lb for chicken) and not intended for weekly shopping.
McGann's "they have no business allowing this, since our rules and regulations do not allow for it" sounds likea spoiled child's "we don't want it and you can't have it either," followed by tongue sticking out and loud pfffftt! This property is not ...more
By Grandmom (8), Southampton on Sep 3, 14 11:09 AM
Why does everyone act like it's an extended road trip from here to Timbuk 3 to shop in Hampton Bays or Bridgehampton?

It's less than 8 miles from Waldbaum's to King Kullen in HB. Conversely, it's less than 6 miles from Waldbaum's to King Kullen in Bridgehampton. Truth be told, I'd rater see a Wild By Nature or Whole Foods before another King Kullen within less than twenty miles.
By Mr. Z (11565), North Sea on Sep 3, 14 12:55 PM
4 members liked this comment
Agreed, it's not needed. Especially with the addition of Citarella in town. If anything knock down Waldbaums and revive that location as it's frightening in its current condition.
By johnj (1017), Westhampton on Sep 3, 14 1:23 PM
1 member liked this comment
The Village is right it will have a negative impact on the businesses there. But unfortunately the village has not grappled in any effective manner with the traffic situation there, especially in the summer time. It does not seem to care a whole hell of a lot about the shoppers with projects that eliminate parking spots and embarking on re pavement projects at the height of summer shopping season. I would think that the Tuckahoe King Kullen would alleviate the traffic situation and not worsen it. ...more
By Toma Noku (616), uptown on Sep 3, 14 1:22 PM
1 member liked this comment
I avoid the village completely in the summer and Waldbaums is not a pleasant place to shop. Citarella traffic is a test of my patience. There is nowhere else for regular folks to shop in between Hampton Bays and Bridgehampton, that's a long stretch.
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 4, 14 12:06 AM
1 member liked this comment
right on MR Z and thus I quote thee; "Why does everyone act like it's an extended road trip from here to Timbuk 3 to shop in Hampton Bays or Bridgehampton?

It's less than 8 miles from Waldbaum's to King Kullen in HB. Conversely, it's less than 6 miles from Waldbaum's to King Kullen in Bridgehampton."

and what an amazing wonderful drive every time I get to do it! I also like he waldbaums and even pay the high prices at schmidts from time to time.

I hate the sprawl. its ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Sep 4, 14 9:29 AM
1 member liked this comment
Isn't the "abandoned surf shop" a farm stand now??
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Sep 4, 14 10:30 AM
More of a flower shop, but yes. They actually did a nice job of cleaning it up.
By johnj (1017), Westhampton on Sep 4, 14 11:03 AM
1 member liked this comment
The village trustees love Citarella right in the middle of the village causing all types of problems... They don't like King Kullen which isn't even in the village, and will give people an affordable place to shop. Either the trustees are dumb or doing something shady.
By chief1 (2771), southampton on Sep 4, 14 10:02 PM
1 member liked this comment
Mr. Epley was not much concerned by the plight of small businesses impacted by Citarella. They had to redo the whole parking scheme there to accommodate Citarella. They even found Citarella plastic shopping bags as acceptable. So the whole argument by Mr. Epley about the impact on small businesses is a lot of ...
By Toma Noku (616), uptown on Sep 4, 14 10:22 PM
1 member liked this comment
Nor was village interested in Golden Pear, Schmidts or all the other smaller eateries in Southampton when it approved the much larger Citarella. The only competition King Kullen has in Southampton is Waldbaums. Although it is the closest store to me, I avoid it and go to Hampton Bays. The commercial tax base for a new King Kullen may help the Tuckahoe School District as well.
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 5, 14 12:46 PM
1 member liked this comment
"The commercial tax base for a new King Kullen may help the Tuckahoe School District as well. "
..
ahhhhhhh this kind of thinking NO THANK YOU
.
development increases the stress on a town ..thus raising taxes!!
..
how can development ever lower taxes ?? IT CANT AND IT DOESNT.it just keeps more town employees on the payroll and on the sweet town retirement plan.

Tuckahoe is allegedly poorly run ..over populated by kids who don't live in Tuckahoe. putting in a King ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Sep 5, 14 5:16 PM
"Tuckahoe is allegedly poorly run ..over populated by kids who don't live in Tuckahoe."

Now there's some great logic for you!
By VOS (1224), WHB on Sep 6, 14 12:41 PM
1-i read the ongoing debates in in these comments sections of how poorly run the Tuckahoe school is.

2-many of the children attending don't even live in Tuckahoe. 5 Underhill probably had as many as 7. the school says its not their job to 'police' this issue of where the children actually live. I will look at that 'motel' on North ROad near Captains Quarters this school year to see how many children are there using the school bus ..getting dropped off in the morning and often waiting quietly ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Sep 8, 14 10:27 AM
A place that pays taxes, hires people, and sends no kids to school is a negative? Lol
By chief1 (2771), southampton on Sep 5, 14 8:20 PM
2 members liked this comment
David, it's not the ONLY reason, and you are incorrect that businesses don't add to the tax rolls. The reason I like the King Kullen proposal is because I would like to not have to drive 10 miles to pick up a few things at the supermarket. Hampton Bays has three shopping centers. Water Mill has a shopping center. Bridgehampton has a shopping center, Southampton Village has a shopping district. Tuckahoe should have their own as well. Southampton doesn't consider Tuckahoe as part of their community, ...more
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 5, 14 9:05 PM
1 member liked this comment
some info to consider:
when robert morrow builds his king kullen mega malls, as he did in HB, he then grieves the taxes and gets them reduced, so don't count on any big tax windfall for tuckahoe.
it's easy to bash waldbaum's for all its faults but its prices and sales beat KK big time. i say we should bring pressure on Waldbaums corporate to improve conditions in the store,instead of just complaining about them in these comments.
the amount of traffic generated by this maga mall will ...more
By svo (7), southampton on Sep 6, 14 8:53 AM
3 members liked this comment
Why would anybody want to drive 10 miles to get to a decent supermarket with the traffic congestion heading east and the death trap of county rd. 39. Please..
Im sure having the convenience if a real supermarket option as opposed to that run-down Waldbaums would be advantageous in so many ways...convenience, jobs, tax support for the district, etc.
By Infoseeker (279), Hampton Bays on Sep 6, 14 9:46 AM
svo, if Waldbaums wants to compete with King Kullen, it will upgrade when competition is created, it's a crappy store because there is no competition, just like its East Hampton store. The Southampton/Tuckahoe area can easily support two supermarkets, and as far as traffic through the village streets, many that live in Tuckahoe are using those side streets to get to Waldbaums, and the new housing plans being developed in Tuckahoe will use those side streets to get to Waldbaums as well. Ideally ...more
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 6, 14 9:54 AM
1 member liked this comment
How much money has Morrow contributed to ATH?
By witch hazel (224), tatooine on Sep 6, 14 12:09 PM
I'll bet he donated plenty! Perhaps as much as Citarella donated to village officials for their very special treatment. It's business as usual in the Hamptons. The project isn't far fetched though. A King Kullen bringing traffic to a standstill and clogging village streets is far fetched. People have to drive to a supermarket. The closer a market is to home the less street, the less driving, the less clogging.
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 6, 14 12:39 PM
"""convenience, jobs, tax support for the district, etc."""
LOL! Tax support! Ask Riverhead about all the tax support they get from Walmart, Target, Costco, etc. and explain to us why Riverhead looks no better and has no better standard of living than they used to have. But they've got plenty of traffic, traffic lights, blacktop and ugly sprawl.
By btdt (449), water mill on Sep 6, 14 3:46 PM
2 members liked this comment
You're comparing a new supermarket in Southampton to Riverhead??? This is the problem with the arguments against the supermarket. I'm reading unsafe, clogged streets, ugly sprawl, standstill traffic, mega mall...all pretty far fetched.
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 6, 14 4:39 PM
Robert morrow doesn't pay taxes his tenants do its called a triple net lease. The taxes are ridiculous for commercial property so he grieves them so he can keep tenants and an attractive center. The man owns the property and has proved there is a need for a grocery store. I'm sure he wouldn't spend sll this money if it would be a failure. Funny how epley and crew want to spend taxpayers money to stop this center. I guess Mark epleys father in laws 90 condos is ok less than a mile away. Morrow forgot ...more
By chief1 (2771), southampton on Sep 6, 14 6:18 PM
What do people really want in that location? Another mechanic? Used tire place? Perhaps we need another car dealer? Or better yet maybe more condos! Something will eventually be built there, it might as well be something the Tuckahoe community actually needs.
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 7, 14 12:48 AM
Every single independent study dating back to the 60s of CR 39 has proscribed as totally inappropriate a 40,000 sq ft behemoth such as this King Kullen as inimical to traffic patterns, highway safety (in a long proven dangerous highway strip notorious for fatal accidents), and immediate community interests. Which is why longstanding zoning law has allowed only a maximum of 15,000 sq ft highway business establishments . JUST THE FACTS, MA'M.

To counter this 800 lb gorilla, Robert Morrow ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 7, 14 2:59 AM
Really? Every single one? And those studies were all prescient enough to describe the the potential of a 40k sq ft supermarket in 2014? Oh my...

Love to see some quotes from the studies, or some actual language from those studies that backs up your comment, which has absolutely no detail.

The property was cobbled together (by King Kullen, originally, not Morrow) from at least 4 lots, each of which had an as of right development envelope of 15,000 sq ft. Total for the 4 lots is ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Sep 7, 14 12:00 PM
1 member liked this comment
"Really? Every single one? And those studies were all prescient enough to describe the the potential of a 40k sq ft supermarket in 2014? Oh my..."

Yessir, the evidence against a 40,000 sq ft high traffic count supermarket type facility is overwhelming in the studies. If you go to the Southampton Planning Dept at Town Hall, they have all the planning studies ever made since the 60s over businesses on CR 39 paid for by the town. Those recommendations advised against having a single business ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 8, 14 6:09 AM
Morrow did not purchase the individual lots and put them together. King Kullen did many years before Morrow got involved. The combination of the lots and the consolidation of the lot coverage is a sensible plan in an area that is seeing significant residential growth. To ignore that is to ignore reality.

The whole point of a PDD is to have a mechanism to look at current code and be able to, with all due diligence, make an exception for an idea that would serve the community, etc., and ...more
By Rickenbacker (257), Southampton on Sep 10, 14 8:46 AM
"The whole point of a PDD is to have a mechanism to look at current code and be able to, with all due diligence, make an exception for an idea that would serve the community, etc., and that addresses facts on the ground."

Absolutely false. Everytime an independent, professional due diligence study since the 60s was made as to the appropriate type of business size for CR 39 considering the type and character of the community,, they have unequivocally rejected a gigantic footprint of high ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 10, 14 10:54 AM
1 member liked this comment
Rickenbacker is right about the purpose of a PDD. It was designed to allow unique and creative mixed-use developments anywhere in a township, so long as certain criteria is met. Additionally, PDD's can be outright rejected by Town Boards. No one is "guaranteed" a PDD, regardless of campaign contributions.

You may be correct about Land Use Plans, but a Land Use Plan would never point out that a certain parcel is appropriate for a PDD, due to the nature of PDDs. They can be configured ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Sep 10, 14 11:34 AM
"P.S. your last sentence makes no sense. Autocorrect may have changed the words?" My last sentence is is on the mark according to Merriam Webster.

"Definition of CATCH-AS-CATCH-CAN: using any available means or method : hit-or-miss

Synonyms: aimless, arbitrary, catch-as-catch-can, desultory, erratic, haphazard, helter-skelter, hit-or-miss, scattered, slapdash, stray."

PDDs by definition take away from the communities and citizens their will, their objectives, the lifestyles ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 10, 14 10:25 PM
Thanks for the "catch-as-catch-can" info, literally never heard it before.

I disagree that the golf courses have "decimated" the tax base. Those properties weren't producing taxes before becoming golf courses anyway, so it's not like money was taken off the tax rolls when they were developed. Furthermore, they put 0 strain on the resources with which you pay taxes for (i.e. they don't send kids to school) and bring in significant revenue to the surrounding community (particularly when ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Sep 12, 14 9:11 AM
"I disagree that the golf courses have "decimated" the tax base. Those properties weren't producing taxes before becoming golf courses anyway, so it's not like money was taken off the tax rolls when they were developed."
Very misleading and disingenuous. In the last 30 years, there has been a real estate boom in the Hamptons from which the SHSD has benefited tremendously because of great increases in their tax base. Because of the these huge golf courses, many of these prime real estate failed ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 14, 14 9:13 PM
Obbservant - so you would be in favor of more development instead of golf courses? Nature's points are good ones, your dislike of golfing notwithstanding.
By dnice (2345), Hampton Bays on Sep 14, 14 10:17 PM
I do not dislike golf at all since I am a golfer with a 24 handicap. I love golf but not as a sport that destroys a community and its educational system through the loss of its tax base although I concede that there is a great risk that Tuckahoe's neanderthal Board would have wasted a lot of that tax revenue through giveaways of tax money. But having a greater tax base would not have hurt.

I guarantee you if Southampton Village had these golf courses instead of its houses you would have ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 15, 14 5:31 AM
Golf courses are not destroying the community. Poor leadership and bad decision making are. The only one making unfounded assertions is you.
By dnice (2345), Hampton Bays on Sep 15, 14 7:24 AM
very nice dnice!

developing the countryside to keep taxes down is incredibly poor leadership demoralizing planning.
By david h (405), southampton on Sep 16, 14 1:28 PM
Dnice and David H have provided some appreciated backup.

Your argument that the golf courses would be better off as residential developments is absurd and based on nothing. Shinnecock Hills has been there for over a century! Having these prestigious clubs in our neighborhood is an absolute asset - having them be residential developments would provide nothing positive aside from those "precious" tax dollars.

You yourself admit that the administration surely would have wasted extra ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Sep 16, 14 2:26 PM
So sorry to interrupt but the change in the way the assessments were applied on the golf courses resulted in a loss of six million dollars in the first two years after the golf courses won their court case. This is, according to a December 23rd 2013 article in this paper. The 22 billion dollar tax base in SH is the only reason they can have one of the highest per student spending stats on LI in tandem with one of the lowest tax rates on LI. Sorry, will leave now.
By Molly65 (5), Southampton on Sep 16, 14 5:12 PM
For some size perspective, here are some number's I found online. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will tell me:
The property is 7.25 acres or 315,810 sq. ft. For visualization, this is over 5.5 NFL football fields, including end zones.
The King Kullen will be 40,000 sq. ft., there will be 15,000 sq. ft. of shops and a 3,500 sq. ft. bank, for a total of 58,500 sq. ft. (on a 385,810 sq. ft. lot). For visualization, the total building is the size of a single football field on a lot the size ...more
By lamm (304), Southampton on Sep 7, 14 10:17 AM
Would this center have an entry from CR 39? Because it would be disastrous for traffic. It wouldn't be just Tuckahoe people who shop there. In summer, hundreds of cars on their way farther east to summer homes would stop in so the drivers and passengers could stretch their legs, let their dogs out for a bathroom break and stock up on groceries. All the people who stop in the Manorville shopping center would wait til they got to the King Kullen center on CR 39.
By btdt (449), water mill on Sep 13, 14 11:55 AM
People had the same concerns with the pop-up whole foods in Wainscott a few years ago and none of those problems materialized.
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Sep 13, 14 4:42 PM
ptdt, yes it would have an ingress and egress from CR 39; and the Wainscott area that Nature proffers is a similar area is nowhere near as dangerous and accident/fatality prone as CR 19 as is obvious from frequent news reports of accidents that sometimes tie up traffic up to West of Manorville. Statistics of frequency of accidents in both areas bear this out.

Accident and fatality statistics for that stretch of highway is frightening as some refer to that stretch as "Death Highway". "Disastrous" ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 14, 14 9:39 PM
1 member liked this comment
Obbservant, can you provide a source for these statistics?
By dnice (2345), Hampton Bays on Sep 14, 14 10:19 PM
I suggest you go to the Planning Dept at Town Hall as they are all there for citizens to see. The converse is ask the Planning Dept. to provide you with any studies at all since the 60s, that recommended the approval of 40,000 square foot businesses in CR 39.

There are none. Do some work to research the community issues as a concerned citizen as I did, instead of sitting back pounding on your computer hoping to get spoonfed by others.

If indeed there is an Town Planning Dept study ...more
By Obbservant (443), southampton on Sep 15, 14 5:57 PM
1 member liked this comment
It doesn't work that way. You claim some dubious info, I ask for a source and you tell me to do my homework. Come clean with some hard facts or stop trying to pass bad information You made the claim, not me.
By dnice (2345), Hampton Bays on Sep 15, 14 8:47 PM
1 member liked this comment
Obbservant - as I stated above, no plan would ever recommend a PDD as part of it due to the very nature of a PDD. PDD's can not be envisioned, but rather are born out of a series of circumstances (and land ownership). The onerous is on the developer to prove that the impacts from their PDD will be sufficiently mitigated and appropriate public benefits will be provided.

Nothing prevents Mr. Morrow from making an application and just because there is no plan that calls for what he proposes ...more
By Nature (2966), Southampton on Sep 16, 14 2:33 PM
San Gennaro Feast of the Hamptons, Hampton Bays, Scottos