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122 Comments by CleanWater

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'The Hills' Developer Selects Wastewater Treatment System

The next para of the soon to be discarded PDD legislation reads:

Any monies collected pursuant to the "cash in lieu of" alternative shall be placed in a dedicated account, restricted to only those uses specifically delineated within the legislation authorizing the planned development district, and may only be allocated pursuant to a duly adopted Town Board resolution.

So, not real estate taxes to be paid by future buyers at "build out", not salaries to be paid to employees, someday, not the value of a handful of community golf outings, not a parking lot, etc., etc., etc.

Cold hard cash deposited to an account commensurate with value to developers.

And then only after the applicant proves his is the best alternative environmentally.

It's over." Jun 7, 17 4:49 PM

Fred Havemeyer To Challenge Southampton Town Supervisor In Democratic Party Primary

From the Long Island Builders Institute Newsletter November 2016:

"The LIBI Community Outreach Committee has been hard at work this month on a mobilization for Discovery Land Group’s project called “The Hills at Southampton”.

"This Outreach mobilization has been a model of how we mobilize our members. We were able to collect over 600 signatures in support of the project on petitions from our members and their employees. We were able to provide numerous speakers in support of the project and had more than 50 people in attendance at the first of what will be 4/5 public hearings.

So the employer members of LIBI get their employees to sign letters and go to a meeting. If this isn't proof that the meetings were stacked and the "letters of support" were a fraud, I don't know what is.

" Jun 19, 17 12:54 PM

From the Long Island Builders Institute Newsletter November 2016:

"The LIBI Community Outreach Committee has been hard at work this month on a mobilization for Discovery Land Group’s project called “The Hills at Southampton”.

"This Outreach mobilization has been a model of how we mobilize our members. We were able to collect over 600 signatures in support of the project on petitions from our members and their employees. We were able to provide numerous speakers in support of the project and had more than 50 people in attendance at the first of what will be 4/5 public hearings.

So the employer members of LIBI get their employees to sign letters and go to a meeting. If this isn't proof that the meetings were stacked and the "letters of support" were a fraud, I don't know what is.

" Jun 19, 17 1:00 PM

Fred Havemeyer Calls For Pine Barrens Commission To Review 'The Hills'

From the Long Island Builders Institute Newsletter November 2016:

"The LIBI Community Outreach Committee has been hard at work this month on a mobilization for Discovery Land Group’s project called “The Hills at Southampton”.

"This Outreach mobilization has been a model of how we mobilize our members. We were able to collect over 600 signatures in support of the project on petitions from our members and their employees. We were able to provide numerous speakers in support of the project and had more than 50 people in attendance at the first of what will be 4/5 public hearings.

So the employer members of LIBI get their employees to sign letters and go to a meeting. If this isn't proof that the meetings were stacked and the "letters of support" were a fraud, I don't know what is.
" Jun 23, 17 6:04 PM

Discovery Land Files 'The Hills' FEIS With Town; Developer Wants To Buy And Preserve Another 33 Acres

Majority, really??

From the Long Island Builders Institute Newsletter November 2016:

"The LIBI Community Outreach Committee has been hard at work this month on a mobilization for Discovery Land Group’s project called “The Hills at Southampton”.

"This Outreach mobilization has been a model of how we mobilize our members. We were able to collect over 600 signatures in support of the project on petitions from our members and their employees. We were able to provide numerous speakers in support of the project and had more than 50 people in attendance at the first of what will be 4/5 public hearings.

So the employer members of LIBI get their employees to sign letters and go to a meeting. If this isn't proof that the meetings were stacked and the "letters of support" were a fraud, I don't know what is.
" Jul 5, 17 3:30 PM

Discovery Land Says Additional Preservation Would Tip Nitrogen Scale In Its Favor; Gobler Still Reviewing Report

An option contract to purchase the Parlatto acreage, a sewage treatment plant for the school, a sewage treatment plant for the homes, the promise to retire pine barrens credits, all sleight of hand, misdirection, intended to distract from the real issue which is that this project doesn't work here. And with the Town about to mandate state of the art water treatment systems the only nitrogen that will remain untreated will be nitrogen required by the golf course.
Jay's must win on all points:
Nitrogen Loading(maybe), Pesticides (NO), Clearing(NO), Number of housing units(probably NO but maybe even), total square footage of buildings(NO), Traffic(NO), School Impacts(probably yes, but both seasonal),Jobs Created(yes), Property Taxes(even), Community Support(NO, unless you count LIBI as community, and then probably NO).
" Jul 15, 17 9:00 AM

Discovery Land Files 'The Hills' FEIS With Town; Developer Wants To Buy And Preserve Another 33 Acres

An option contract to purchase the Parlatto acreage, a sewage treatment plant for the school, a sewage treatment plant for the homes, the promise to retire pine barrens credits, all sleight of hand, misdirection, intended to distract from the real issue which is that this project doesn't work here. And with the Town about to mandate state of the art water treatment systems the only nitrogen that will remain untreated will be nitrogen required by the golf course.
Jay's must win on all points:
Nitrogen Loading(maybe), Pesticides (NO), Clearing(NO), Number of housing units(probably NO but maybe even), total square footage of buildings(NO), Traffic(NO), School Impacts(probably yes, but both seasonal),Jobs Created(yes), Property Taxes(even), Community Support(NO, unless you count LIBI as community, and then probably NO)." Jul 15, 17 9:03 AM

Havemeyer Files Petition, Will Challenge Schneiderman For Democratic Line In September Race

And by a few lackeys you mean:

East Quogue Civic Assoc.
Friends of Sandy Hollow Assoc.
CAC-West (Westhampton, Remsenburg, Speonk, Eastport)
Group for the East End
Citizens Campaign for the Environment
Bay View Pines Civic & Taxpayers Association
East Quogue CAC
Shinnecock Neighbors
CLEAN
Sag Harbor CAC
Long Island Environmental Voters Forum
Southampton Town Civic Coalition
Assemblyman Fred W. Thiele, Jr.
Legislator Bridget Fleming
" Jul 17, 17 9:34 AM

UPDATE: PDD Would Have Less Nitrogen Impact, According To Gobler's Latest Environmental Report On 'The Hills'

dave h you are on to something. They can't show the real acreage because the plan won't meet clearing limitations if they do. So they have areas in the middle of the golf course they claim will remain untouched natural. Sure they will. " Aug 26, 17 11:30 PM

Southampton Town Board Busy Reviewing Documents On 'The Hills' As Votes Approach

Yes, golf courses such as Indian Island that use reclaimed water from sewage treatment plants are to be commended. They are saving water.

That is not what is being proposed for the Hills. You are misleading your readers." Sep 6, 17 4:40 PM

Total double-speak Lion. No one said anything about potable water. Not part of the conversation, not for Indian Island, your example, or the Hills. The Hills is "tapping" into the groundwater. like any other irrigation well. Whether or not what they propose will be of any value is pure speculation. And it may in fact be spreading toxic chemicals it picks up along with the nitrogen." Sep 6, 17 4:58 PM

Your analogy of environmentalists concern about the effect the Hills will have on rapidly degrading water quality on LI to "overreaction" by the media is provocative.

Good analogy - terrible conclusion

Tell the 20 people already dead from this hurricane that the media overreacted.

As to the golf course and it's potential impact on water quality, It's time to devote serious resources to fixing the problem and certainly time to stop adding to the problem.

Cutting down 100 acres of pine barrens knowing what we know now would be irresponsible.

Keep ignoring LI water quality issues and watch as the beaches close and the entire east end goes into decline. Apocalyptic, yes." Sep 10, 17 4:52 PM


Hypothetical - I have my home on a little over 1/2 acre in East Quogue. The house, pool, and little lawn used up all the "clearing" i was allowed under my building permit. I want to expand my lawn by another 200 square feet. And I don't want to do what everyone else does and just take down a few trees late one afternoon in November. I go to Town Hall and ask for a hardship variance to allow me to do it. They say OK, but they add conditions: No more than 25 lbs of fertilizer per year and no more than 10 lbs of pesticide. I agree.

Then the grass is not doing so well so I buy another 25 lb bag of fertilizer and put it down and when the bugs come in August I spray some additional pesticide.

Here comes the question. Unless the Town is watching me 24/7 365 days a year how would they ever know?

Never mind what would they do? They would never know. Monitoring, other than on water that is collected, is a fantasy created by developers and politicians who want to make the public think they are being protected.
" Sep 10, 17 8:59 PM

There was no finding that the golf course development means less pollution. The only people who have read the Gobler report and came to that conclusion were Mark Hissey of Discovery Land and Amanda Bernocco the Press reporter who seems to like quoting Mr. Hissey.

As Bob Deluca (Group for the East End) said:

"In fact, the report is hardly an endorsement of the project and states without equivocation that had the additional nitrogen mitigation measures offered for Discovery’s PDD been applied to lower-impact alternatives presented during the public hearing process, those alternatives would have produced better nitrogen numbers than the PDD."

" Sep 12, 17 11:14 AM

There was no finding that the golf course development means less pollution. The only people who have read the Gobler report and came to that conclusion were Mark Hissey of Discovery Land and Amanda Bernocco the Press reporter who seems to like quoting Mr. Hissey.

As Bob Deluca (Group for the East End) said:

"In fact, the report is hardly an endorsement of the project and states without equivocation that had the additional nitrogen mitigation measures offered for Discovery’s PDD been applied to lower-impact alternatives presented during the public hearing process, those alternatives would have produced better nitrogen numbers than the PDD."" Sep 12, 17 12:39 PM

As so eloquently written in this weeks Press by Carolyn Zenk, Atty at Law:

When Supervisor Jay Schneiderman presented Dr. Gobler with a PDD plan, which relies on off-site environmental benefits to compete with current zoning, he betrayed a principle he’s repeatedly espoused: that the PDD plan must beat the as-of-right plan “intrinsically.”

And as attributed in the press to Supervisor Schneiderman himself:
"Mr. Schneiderman said town officials sought ways to make the community benefit component of the law “intrinsic to the zone change itself,” such as providing for an assisted-living facility, medical center, or workforce housing, and not simply “a package of goodies for the community.”

Your "package of goodies" is lipstick on a pig. Taking down 100 acres of Pine Barrens to build a golf course is inexcusable knowing what we know today.
" Sep 14, 17 9:41 AM

UPDATE: Southampton Town Board Signs Off Thursday On Environmental Study For 'The Hills'

Your understanding is incorrect. The developer used a loophole in the Housing Law which enabled them to avoid paying into the fund by reducing the density by one unit, which they did. " Sep 16, 17 2:09 PM

Nothing in their documents or even in their PR campaign suggests that. All we know is that they reduced the yield by one club house apartment to use the loophole to avoid the payment.
And it was never a "contribution" it was a required payment that they used a loophole to wriggle out of." Sep 19, 17 12:38 PM

Lofstad, Bouvier Reject Findings Statement On 'The Hills' Project Tuesday

Supervisor Schneider said, when asked about how limitations on chemicals would be implemented said:

"And to the degree that the town enforces the code, I hope that the town, in the future, does the right thing. It enforces the code"

So he's off the hook!

Thank you Julie and John" Sep 28, 17 12:38 PM

Dr. Gobler Includes Fertigation In Updated Environmental Report On 'The Hills'

Please read Dr. Goblers report. He does not conclude that the Hills will contribute less nitrogen than a subdivision. He concludes it might. If all the mitigation works perfectly and actually happens. Which he makes clear in the report is unlikely. If. If. If.
" Nov 2, 17 9:22 AM

Please read Dr. Goblers report. He does not conclude that the Hills will contribute less nitrogen than a subdivision. He concludes it might. If all the mitigation works perfectly and actually happens. Which he makes clear in the report is unlikely. If. If. If. " Nov 2, 17 12:56 PM

What Dr. Gobler said in his own words – NO SPIN – just CAPS

“This has NEVER been done anywhere in the United States. NOWHERE has anyone used GROUNDWATER to fertilize. They've done it for WASTEWATER water, but not for CONTAMINATED GROUNDWATER, so we DON’T have anything to go on, but I think it's a great idea.”

“The total calculation of nitrogen impacts and mitigation for this project are COMPLICATED by the CHALLENGE of ATTEMPTING to quantify several INEXACT variables under DIFFERING regulatory requirements, while simultaneously making judgments about EFFECTIVE implementation, VOLUNTARY program participation LONG-TERM ENFORCEMENT, and site management over time. There are UNCERTAINTIES in this analysis with regard to where the Pine Barrens Credits to be purchased would ‘land’. Further, it is NOT KNOWN how many homeowners will participate in the septic upgrade program within the watershed. Future considerations: All of these calculations are, of course THEORETICAL and the extent to which the actual nitrogen yields on the Hills property match these calculations will be partly a function of the extent to which the characteristics of development matches the details and practices outlined in the PDD. Moreover, as more detailed information of the manner in which the Hills PDD may be developed and operated become available and as ACTUAL data is collected, these HYPOTHETICAL scenarios and calculations could and PROBABLY should be refined. If the Hills PDD is approved and The Hills at Southampton is developed, STRINGENT ENFORCEMENT along with careful monitoring of the development, watershed, groundwater, surface waters, and surrounding ecosystems will be REQUIRED to assure optimal environmental outcomes. “

SO NOW YOU WANT US TO BET THE RANCH ON FERTIGATION?????


" Nov 2, 17 2:46 PM

Supervisor Jay Schneiderman
September 26, 2017

Replying to a question about limiting nitrogen at the Hills:

"And to the degree that the Town enforces the code, I HOPE that the Town, in the future does the right thing."

Well that certainly clinches it for me. Let's bet the ranch on the supervisor's hope in future Town Boards.
.

" Nov 2, 17 6:04 PM

Dr. Gobler's analysis without a deducting the nitrogen that might someday be created by an unbuilt, unapproved subdivision on a separate piece of land and the deduction of the nitrogen from the transfer of 35 Pine Barrens credits that Dr. Gobler was "directed" to include although he clearly states in his report cannot be done under current law would CLEARLY and OVERWHELMINGLY demonstrate that the As of Right is the better choice." Nov 3, 17 2:21 PM

Suffolk County Planning Commission Approves The Hills Golf Course Resort In East Quogue

Really a lot more than just the homes. More significantly Sebonack and the Bridge were not proposed in the Pine Barrens in the aquifer Overlay Protection District. Sebonack was built over a developed property with a hundred structures and buried tanks, not a forest, and the Bridge was built over the old Bridgehampton Race Circuit, also not a forest. Not even close." Nov 4, 17 10:16 AM

UPDATE: With All Districts Reporting, Schneiderman, Lofstad, Schiavoni Claim Victory In Southampton

That is not true.
Newsdays interactive map shows that Julie won in EQ as well as her landslide victory in the entire Town. " Nov 10, 17 7:32 AM

Southampton Town's Conservation Board Says The Hills Project May Hurt The Environment

Sebonack and Golf at the Bridge are not in the pine barrens.

Sebonack and Golf at the Bridge are not in the aquifer overlay protection district.

Golf at the Bridge was built over an automobile race track and Sebonack was built on a property that had hundreds of structures and buried tanks.

They were not built in a virgin forest.

They were well thought out projects in the right locations.

Not even apples vs oranges. Two different species.


" Nov 30, 17 8:41 AM

Mr. loxman,

The Southampton Town Code Chapter 330 Article XIII 330-63 created a defined district which has been found to be water catchment regions. It is not under your house or under Town Hall. It is under the Hills. See the Town Code sections below.

Also the stripped down to the sand portions you speak of are about 25 acres out of 600 acres of virgin pine forest.

I'll bet you didn't know any of that.

Chapter 330. Zoning Article XIII. Aquifer Protection Overlay Protection District § 330-63. Findings

A.
The Town Board of the Town of Southampton is empowered by § 263 of the Town Law of the State of New York to enact zoning regulations which, in accordance with the Town Master Plan, facilitate the adequate provision of water to the residents of the Town and also promote the health, safety and welfare of the Town. The sole source of drinking water for the Town of Southampton is its underground aquifers. The federal government has given sole source aquifer designation to this area. The aquifers must be kept pure if a continued source of potable drinking water is to be available for future generations. It is the policy of the Town Board to protect the Town's supply of drinking water in its pristine state and prevent the degradation of this valuable and essential resource.
B.
The Town Master Plan and subsequent studies and updates have located geographic areas in the Town where water recharge geographic areas in the Town where water recharge into the aquifers is the deepest and the greatest recharge occurs. These areas have been designated as water catchment regions.
C.
These water catchment regions affect the water quality for the entire Town. The types of land use which occur above the water catchment regions directly impact upon the aquifer and its quality. Thus, the type of land use in the water catchment regions must be compatible with the function of water recharge to ensure the goal of protecting the drinking water supply of the Town.
D.
The recent Cornell University Water Study clearly indicates the importance of regulating certain uses to preserve pure water quality.
E.
The Town Board has already recognized that the density of population and intensity of land use are variables which affect both water quality and quantity. Programs to reduce population density and promote open space have already been implemented which benefit both water quality and water quantity.
F.
Of equal importance in protecting water quality are the types of land uses which are permitted in water catchment regions. Land use regulations must be implemented which strictly regulate land uses which are incompatible with water recharge and the protection of the Town's supply of pure drinking water.
G.
It is the purpose of this chapter, in accordance with findings of the Cornell University Water Study, to create an Aquifer Protection Overlay District to regulate land use over those areas which have been found to be water catchment regions in order to promote the goals of the Town Master Plan and the policy of the Town " Nov 30, 17 11:41 AM

Planning Board Pushes Off Decision On Whether Additional Environmental Study Is Needed For East Quogue Golf Course Resort

All golf courses put toxic chemicals into the ground.

How bad does our water quality have to get before we decide to stop building more of them.

And, The Bridge was built over the old automobile race track, Sebonack was built over the old IBEW camp, and Atlantic was built over farmed land.

The Hills is planned over the largest remaining parcel of pine barrens forest left in the Town.

" Mar 16, 19 12:44 PM

VOS. Nonsense. The only way to “capture” the chemicals would be to put a liner under the ENTIRE 90 ACRE golf course.

Some golf courses collect an infinitesimal amount of the chemicals in test wells for monitoring how much they are polluting. IT DOESN’T PREVENT THE CHEMICALS FROM GETTING INTO THE GROUNDWATER.

According to their application approximately FIFTY FIVE MILLION (55,000,000) gallons of water will be pumped up from the ground water and sprayed over the golf course. Long Island gets about 50 inches of rain a year. So it rains onto the same fertilized, chemically sprayed, manicured turf 50 inches deep multiplied by 90 acres equals another ONE HUNDRED TEN MILLION (110,000,000) gallons of water seeping into the ground through the chemicals.

To collect the chemicals you would have to cart away ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE MILLION gallons of water (less evaporation) every year. 17,000 tanker trucks of toxic chemical laden water a year.
" Mar 18, 19 3:19 PM

Thank you Turkey Bridge, well said." Mar 19, 19 3:25 PM

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